View Full Version : C4 diagnostics and data


PaulS
2008-08-20, 22:03
I am going to make an attempt to put together a complete diagnostics for the C4 in the following posts so that folks can go through step by step to find out what went wrong with that transmission that has been working fine - up 'til now.

The C4 is a three speed automatic transmission.
In 1964 it was introduced as a new cruise-o-matic with Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive, Drive2, and 1 selections on the shifter. (Green Dot C4)
In 1967 it was re-introduced as a "select shift" with a position for each gear: P,R, N, D, 2, 1 with the only real change in the valve body and porting in the case. This version stayed in service until 1970 when Ford introduced the first factory manual shift C4 and a newer version of the "select shift". The changes were in the valve body and in passages cast into the case. Aside from the diameter of the input shaft, the inside diameter of the pump stator support and the forward clutch pack splines, all internal parts swap from one to the other. The case porting on the 1964-66 is different than all the other cases and to update you need a new case. The case porting on the 1967-69 cases is different from the later models and the valve bodies will not interchange. There are three types of valve bodies in the 70 and later C4s. In 1970 only, the manual shift C4 has now automatic shifting. It uses a 26x26 spline input so the forward clutch drum splines are not usable in any other transmission. The 1970 - up automatic C4s used a 24x26 spline input shaft and some are hardened while others are not. There are two valve bodies for these transmissions. One has the line pressure limit valve and spring held in place with a roll pin though a boss on the valve body and the other has the limit valve and spring held in place with a part of the filter.
These are the most plentiful C4s and are the ones used most often to upgrade for performance use. There are two cases. On that the bellhousing bolts to the pump (case fill) and one that the bellhousing bolts to a built in flange on the case (pan fill). The pan fill case is slightly stronger because of the build up inthe area of the flange. Either case can take up to 1000 HP but the internal parts must be modified to handle the power.

In order to correctly identify the C4 that you have you must have the small rectangular tag bolted to the servo housing or the date code on the left side of the transmission and the stamped in number that can be found under it.

Morning Sickness:
If your C4 is suffering from "morning Sickness" - that is if it hesitates to go into forward gears on the first start-up of the day but otherwise it runs fine; you have a poorly sealing forward clutch. This is usually caused by the seals on the forward clutch piston getting hard from too much heat and years of it. The only repair is to rebuild the tranny. Yes, I know there are myths about putting everything from diesel oil to brake fluid - and any number of stuff off the shelf - into the C4 but think about it. If this stuff will soften the hard brittle seal in a clutch pack what is it going to do to the converter seal that is already soft? It is the first seal that will be affected by whatever you put in your transmission and it has to hold oil in your transmission to keep it alive. If you are running a cooler that has any length of rubber hose to it the softening agents (usually alcohol) will also ruin those hoses too - and they are under about 70 psi at times. You are a lot better off when this problem first arrises to let the transmission take it's time to engage (don't rev up the engine) and once it engages drive it gently. I have seen cars last for two years with this problem. This will give you time to get a replacement or schedule the time for the rebuild.

No Reverse:
If you have no reverse but still have all the other gears working fine (including high gear) then you are the lucky one! This is a relatively easy problem to correct and it can be done with the transmission in the car.
Your rear servo seal is probably cracked. the seal is moulded to the steel piston and comes as an assembly - piston and seal.
You will need a piston, cover seal (a square cut o-ring), about two quarts of type "F" fluid and some loc-tite 518 sealer.
Once you have your parts, you can jack up the car far enough to be comfortable underneath it. Use solid stands or block it up with wood (two by two crib style). Loosen the band locknut (on the oposite side of the tranny) and tighten the adjusting screw to 10 foot pounds. Place a drain pan under the rear servo and remove the four bolts that hold it in place. BE CAREFUL there is a spring behind the piston and the cover will pop out - with a resulting splash of oil. If the piston doesn't pop out all by itself you can use the spring to get it out by pushing the piston back in and then letting it "POP" again. You will be ready for the oil this time. Clean the cover, coat the o-ring cover seal in loc-tite 518, coat the piston seal with vaseline and re-install making sure that the spring is in place. Hold the cover in place while you start two bolts on oposite sides of the cover. Then you can let go of the cover and start the other two bolts. Tighten the bolts in a "cross" pattern evenly and when they are snug torque them to 18 foot pounds. Now back the adjusting screw off 3 turns exactly and hold the screw while you tighten the lock nut to 40 foot pounds.
Start the engine and let it idle in park while you check and top off the transmission level. Go for a test drive and enjoy your new found reverse gear operation.

My C4 shifts too soon:
This is actually a lack of a problem! The C4 should idealy shift from 1-2 before you cross an intersection from a stop and into third very quickly after that. My wife's C4 shift 1-2-3 before the back of the car crosses the stop line on the other side of a two lane road - it shifts so early you can hardly tell it has shifted. (NOTE: the C4 in it is a 500 hp unit that I built with a stage 1 valve body for street only use) It shifts under light throttle just as it did when it was new (with less overlap and a bit faster engagement). When she pushes the throttle to half way down and pulls away fast it does shift later and with much more authority.
If you simply MUST have a C4 that shifts later than stock you can do this two ways. Shift it manually - then you are in complete control of when it shifts and you can't hurt your transmission doing this. The other way is to get a new modulator (green stripe is the best but it might require some mods for those who have a two diaphagm modulator - more on that later....
You will need a new green stripe modulator, a quart of type "F" fluid and a modulator rod (make it from a 8d nail) that is 1.6 inches long. You can do this by jacking the car at the rear end of the car. (block the front wheels so it won't roll) Use stable jackstands or good blocks. Remove the extension housing bolt that holds the spring that keeps the modulator in place. Put a pan under the modulator and remove the hose that connects to it. (if there is any oil in the hose then your modulator was leaking and needed to be replaced anyway) Pull the modulator out - the pin will probably come with it so watch for it. Place some vaseline on the o-ring that seals the modulator (they usually come on the modulator), place your new pin into the modulator and slide the modulator back into the transmission. If you push it all the way into the case it will spring back about 1/4" - that is normal. If it springs back more than that then you have missed the hole in the back of the valve spool with the pin - take the modulator back out and try again holding the pin in the middle of the bore for the modulator. Once it is in place re-install the spring retainer and extension housing bolt that holds it in place. Plug the hose back in and let the car down. Start the engine and let it idle in park while you top off the transmission oil. Take the car out and see if it shifts more to your liking. If you still want more there is one more thing that you can do: Where you plug the hose on the back of the modulator there is a small screw. You can turn that screw in one turn at a time until you reach a shift point that is ok or no more than 3 turns. (you turn it in to make the shifts later - righty tighty) Mark the modulator with the number of turns that you have turned it - the next guy may want to do the same thing you did and if the modulator isn't marked the modulator will be ruined and the car will either shift eratically or leak fluid into the hose (and the manifold) sucking the C4 dry and making lots of white smoke on decelleration. the mark I make is with a paint pen or permanent marker and it is a simple +1 or however many turns you have turned it. ("+2.5" "+3" "-1")
If you reach 3 turns and still aren't happy with the shift timing then you need to shift manually - there is nothing that you can do to make it shift later automatically without hurting the transmission.

PaulS
2008-08-20, 22:07
No second gear:
Test this by trying to start out in manual second by placing the selector in the "2" position. If the car moves forward in first then you have no second - you will note that in DRIVE the transmission starts out fine and then doesn't shift until your at a high enough speed to shift into "3". This happens sometimes to those who "hotrod" an older C4 or appears just after having passed a car. There are many causes but the usual cause is a broken band or a "dropped" link. If it has been a long time since the bands were adjusted - get it done or do it yourself! the only reason for a dropped link is that there is too much clearance in the band adjustment. The other cause is a broken band. a broken band is a good reason to rebuild your C4 - unless you just rebuilt it. There is a repair that can be made to a street cruiser (low HP - NO drag racing) car. The repair is done with transmission in the car but it does require the removal of the valve body (a good time to install a TransGo 40-2 kit in the valve body).
You will need a "Snap Band", 3 - 6 quarts of type "F" fluid, a new pan gasket and some loc-tite 518. ( a couple of 3" pieces of threaded rod and two nuts are very helpful). Jack the car up high enough that you can get under it comfortably and block it with stable stands or cribbing. Place your drain pan under the transmission pan and remove the bolts from the rear forward until you get to the last two bolts. Just loosen these bolts and pry the rear of the pan down until it breaks the seal on the gasket. As you further loosen the front bolts the rear of the pan will drop more until the transmission has drained most of its fluid into the pan (or close to the pan). You can then hold the pan while you remove the bolts completely and set the pan aside. Now remove the bolts that hold the valve body in place and drop it down placing it carefully into the pan you just removed. Check the pan for a broken piece of the band (usually it has the heavy metal end on it). If you do not see it in the pan look up in the transmission toward the front pan rail. Try pulling on the adjuster links - if they fall and part of the band comes off with it then you know for sure that you have a broken band. Pull the other side down - it will slide around the drum and come out faily easily. Keep the links - you will need them later. If the band is broken skip the next section.
.....If the band doesn't seem to be broken but you have the symptoms then it is time to air test the transmission with 40 - 60 psi to find out if it is working or not. If the servo is not operating then you will need to remove the front servo piston and cover to find the problem. It might be a broken piston retainer (a small snap ring), a broken piston or a cracked cover. Look all the parts over before you decide it is just a bad seal ring......
Installing the Snap Band:
When you bought the "Snap Band" it came in a box with instructions... FOLLOW THEM. (if you need help e-mail me: paulstephens at q.com) once in adjust the band to 10 foot pounds and back it of 1 1/2 turns.
Once you have it adjusted then in opposite corners of the valve body mounting bolts install your two pieces of threaded rod a few turns in. put the valve body up on the rods and start the nuts on the threaded rods. (this will help hold the valve body while you check to make sure that the manual valve and downshift linkage are both engaged as the valve body goes up into place. When you get the valve body about 1/4" away from the mounting surface see if the downshift lever is engaging the valve - it should move in one direction and spring back. Try sliding the manual valve back and forth - it is slides then line it up with the peg that sticks out from the shift linkage and move the valve body up to 1/8" away from the mounting surface. Recheck both linkages to make sure that the valves and levers are connected. the downshift lever should move in one direction and spring back on its own and the manual valve should not slide in either direction more than 1/32".
When the linkage is right you can start the bolts around the valve body and snug them up to the valve body. Pull out the two threaded rods and nuts and install th other bolts. (NOTE: the long bolt goes into the end of the filter) tighten the bolts down in a back and forth pattern from the middle of the valve body to the outsides just finger tight. Torque the bolts in the same pattern to 20 inch pounds. Coat the pan gasket with the thinest possible film of loc-tite 518 and place on the pan. Put the pan in place and start all the bolts. Draw the bolts up evenly until they are finger tight. Tighten the bolts until the gasket just starts to bulge (very slight - DO NOT CRUSH THE GASKET). Put three to four quarts of type "F" fluid in the transmission. Start the engine and let it idle in PARK until you fill the transmission to half-way between the ADD and FULL marks on the dipstick. Turn the engine off and let the car down. start the car back up and run it through the gears (not going anywhere yet) and place it in PARK idling. Check the fluid level and bring it back up to 1/2 way between the ADD and FULL mark. Take the car for a test drive making sure to use the manual "2" position to make sure you have second gear.

No Reverse or High gear, Compression braking works in manual low:
All these symptoms point to a Dir/Rev clutch not applying. It is most likely a bad direct clutch piston seal.
You can find out for sure if you jack the car up high enough to get under it comfortably remove the pan (drain oil into drain pan) and remove the valve body. Check the action of the clutches and bands with 40 - 60 psi. if the direct clutches just hiss you can be sure that the piston is not sealing. You will have to remove the transmission is going to have to come out to be repaired.

PaulS
2008-08-25, 01:22
To be continued... as time allows.........

CornedBeef4.6L
2008-08-25, 05:34
great info!!

facelessnumber
2008-08-25, 09:08
There are two valve bodies for these transmissions. One has the line pressure limit valve and spring held in place with a roll pin though a boss on the valve body and the other has the limit valve and spring held in place with a part of the filter.

Hey Paul, thank you for taking the time to share this excellent guide. Regarding the two valve bodies you mention above, is one any better than the other, or have characteristics that differ in any other way besides that roll pin?

PaulS
2008-08-27, 01:49
Facelessnumber,
the valve bodies are different - the one with the valve held in place with the roll pin is considered the "Pinto" valve body and the internal passages are different enough that not many people bother to modify it. The 40-2 TransGo kit does address the difference and works with either. My modifications that are listed in the tech area do not address this valve body. I commonly use the valve body with the valve and spring retained by the filter. I do have notes somewhere on the other valve body but I would have to look them up and go through it all to use the "Pinto" valve body.

facelessnumber
2008-08-27, 09:14
Facelessnumber,
the valve bodies are different - the one with the valve held in place with the roll pin is considered the "Pinto" valve body

Interesting. I have both types. Currently I'm running the "Pinto" style valve body, which I did apply that Trans-Go kit to. No complaints so far. It came from a '77 Comet transmission (it also had the large bellhousing, which I think may have been a '77 thing.) Are there any advantages or limitations between one or the other? Any functional differences between them?

PaulS
2008-08-28, 02:28
Not really, there are just fewer of the "Pinto" style valves around. The 40-2 kit handles both well. You should have no issues at all.

cenc1984
2008-09-09, 19:44
ok so what if the car will not go forward, but go backward just like it should (up untill yesterday it was running fine) today it was grinding gears and shifting hard/ bucking, sliping and now nothing. wont move in 1st 2nd or drive....help me on this Is there a second clutch for reverse? did I burn out my clutch?
ps. my fluid smells fine and my P valve isnt leaking any fluid when I pulled the vaccume line off. thats what I know any help is, well........ helpfull

thanks a million
ALex O

newtoford
2008-09-09, 19:56
ive been dealing with morning sickness on my daily comet amost a year now. i used to only do it when it was really cold out side but now its alot more noticable

anything i can do to prolong its life besides going easy on it?

PaulS
2008-09-10, 01:36
Yep!
Don't rev the engine to get the gear to engage. If it is already past that stage then you are headed for trouble - SOON.
I have been living with "Morning Sickness" withmine for the last two years. It isn't getting any better but it hasn't gotten any worse. I will be putting the C4 that I built for it in come October. (actually I won't be installing it - I let the local Voc-Tech school do it. They do it because I am disabled and all I pay for is the fluid and a $10 shop fee.)

yokeracer
2008-10-09, 05:49
Hey PaulS, hopefully you can tell me what's wrong with my tranny. I have a C-4 in my Comet GT. I lost all gears, forward and Reverse. I just have Park. It was running fine til I got on it one day, hit passing gear, then felt like it hit neutral. I have the tranny out, and about to take it to the shop next week, but if there's an easy fix that I can do at home, that would be great. Someone that races Fords told me that it could be my valvebody gone bad. What do you think? Thanx in advance.

ratio411
2008-10-09, 11:13
Good info from the tranny master! :clap:

The biggest problem I have ever had with C4s is where there is a slipping sound between gear changes. It is hard to describe, rather than just sounding like a shift, there is an extra sound where should just be a change from one gear to the next.
It sounds as though the engine may be slipping for a fraction of a second between gears.

I heard someone use the term "flare up" or "shift flare" to describe a situation that sounded similar. It's hard to tell or describe without being in the car.

I have had several C4s do this, even after a "professional rebuild"... But would like to mention I have NEVER seen another tranny do this. Not even related trannys like C6, AOD, or E4OD. It seems to be a C4 only phenom, and common to the C4.

Do you have any ideas or comments?

Thanks!
Dave

ratio411
2008-10-09, 11:34
Another topic I hope to see you touch on is the servo.

I know there are several covers with different letters cast into them. Each is designed to give the tranny different characteristics. Could you summarize those charateristics so we can make educated decisions on which servo to use?

Also, where is the best place to find a variety of different letter servos to chose from?
Example, if I want an "H" servo, how do I find out which part to ask for at the parts store. I know if I want a good, adjustable vacuum advance cannister for my distributor, I ask for the part for a 68 Fairlane 4v 302, as an example. Doing it this way skips the variable of modern parts counter guys that don't know anything but what the store computer tells them.

I remember when you could ask the counter guys which part to use, and they generally knew, or found out quickly. Now they just give you a blank stare of confusion when you go 'out of the box' on tuning parts selection... Getting off topic. ;)

Dave

PaulS
2008-10-09, 23:30
The last two posts are on the same topic so I will touch on that here and then add it to the list at the top of this forum.

The condition where the engine seems to run up between shifts is called a "flare" and when the engine seems to hang and feels mushy betwen gears is called overlap. Flare usually happens when an "R" servo is installed to replace a different servo with a larger disengagement side. The servo disengages before the direct clutch has time to lock up so you get a flare. There are two cures and a hack for this condition:
Fix 1. put back in a servo with a larger disengagement side. "C" or "H" are recommended
Fix 2. restrict the flow to the disengagement side of the servo (difficult to do without restricting the apply side but it can be done.
Hack: Tighten the front band adjustment up to 1 turn in 1/4 turn increments. This may ease the flare but it will cause rapid wear of the band and extra heat in the C4. It is the "fix" that a lot of weekend racers use.

Servos and the reason there are differences:
(I hope this formatting comes out well)

-------Apply--Apply--Release--Release
Servo--force--area----force----area----Use
--C----1529--7.6sq"---2250----11.3sq"-** up to 700 hp (700 ft lbs)
--H----1376--6.9sq"---2250----11.3sq"-** up to 600 hp (600 ft lbs)
--A----1254--6.9sq"---2250----11.3sq"-** up to 500 hp (500 ft lbs)
--R----1249--6.2sq"---1675---- 8.4sq"-----up to 450 hp (800 with mod)
--B----1154--5.8sq"---2250----11.3sq"-** up to 390 hp
the rest are maginal for anything but stock engines and some can be used with the mod to use on higher HP (torque) applications. The "K" and "W" servos are the ones to use for up to 1000 hp appications after the mod has been performed. They are NOT recommended for street applications and the force applied can break bands and cases with high pressures. The force numbers are in pounds with an operating pressure of 200 psi. Some of my transmissions use pressures over that point and some use slightly less. The valve body (separator plate) has restrictions that match the timing of the release of the band with the application of the direct clutches. improper mods to those restrictions will always cause Flare or Overlap. Installing a different servo can accentuate the problem and make it intollerable. For street and street/strip applications you almost never have to change servos or the porting to the point where flare is caused. Overlap is supposed to be eliminated to a very large degree in any performance transmission.
This will be discussed in my initial trouble-shooting guide above as I have the time to devote to it.

PaulS
2008-10-09, 23:35
Hey PaulS, hopefully you can tell me what's wrong with my tranny. I have a C-4 in my Comet GT. I lost all gears, forward and Reverse. I just have Park. It was running fine til I got on it one day, hit passing gear, then felt like it hit neutral. I have the tranny out, and about to take it to the shop next week, but if there's an easy fix that I can do at home, that would be great. Someone that races Fords told me that it could be my valvebody gone bad. What do you think? Thanx in advance.

It sounds like you broke something internally - probably expensive. It is possible that you have a stuck valve or a broken spring on the limit valve but unless I get long distance x-ray vision I can't be of any real help to you.

yokeracer
2008-10-10, 17:36
Thanx PaulS,
I was about to send it to the shop today, but decided to just throw in the AOD that I just got. My buddy insists that it has less than 2k miles on it. He told me to changed front and rear seals and I'll be good. I still will have to get a Lokar TV cable and brackets, and new floor shifter (I like B&M's line), because of the extra gear position. Oh! and I will have to modify the tranny cross member. I did get the driveshaft yoke with tranny. So I guess next year, I'll just throw in the roller motor and rearend :dance:. Thanx again PaulS and everyone else.

Maverick Barber
2009-01-17, 23:31
I am experiencing the same symptoms with the slow shifting into drive. My only concern is the guy I bought the car from seems to have made some type of homemade shifting device from the steering column to the side of the transmission. I got underneath there and the bolt up that connects to the transmission is very loose. Also there were a few open connectors that did not have anything connected to them. Is there anywhere that I can find a diagram of the C4 transmission to see what plugs up where? At times when I finally take off the shift lever will jump. Thanks for any and all helpful input

PaulS
2009-01-19, 02:46
Does it always shift slowly into drive?
A bit more information would really help.
When is it shifting slow? does it shift into the other gears slowly too?
Does reverse work the same way?

Maverick Barber
2009-01-20, 06:39
It will not go directly into drive only after it sits for a while. Example: When I start it up in the morning, the engine must be warmed up pretty good before it will shift into drive, otherwise it will only shift in reverse right after startup. If I let the car warm up for about 10 minutes it will shift into drive pretty quick, but if I let it warm up for only a minute or two, it will not engage at all into drive. could I have a vacuum leak or seal problem like someone stated earlier in this posting? When it does engage it shifts as smooth as silk and drives really good. I just put it in drive and hold my foot on the brake until it engages into drive. I talked with a guy from AAMCO and he stated that my timing could be off or the idle speed could be set improperly but worst case would be an $800 rebuild of the seals and "vital" components.

PaulS
2009-01-20, 10:09
Barber,
Your C4 is suffering from "Morning Sickness". The piston apply seals in the forward clutch is hard and shrunk allowing oil to leak past until it warms up and becomes more flexible. A rebuils will fix it and a cooler will keep it from happening in the future. If you rebuild it for a few dollars more you can install a TransGo reprogramming kit (shift kit) 40-2 it will give you better shifting and longer life.
For the same $800 you can buy a really good C4 from Broader Performance instead of a rebuilt from AAmco.

yellow75
2009-01-20, 14:00
If you arent able to get a tranny from PaulS I will put in a good word for Broader performance, he built my c4 and did it a short time. He is a Ford guy and a straight shooter, told him what I wanted to use tranny for and motor specs and got convertor from him as well. Had it for a couple years now and race just about every weekend in the summer and have had no problems at all with it.

maverick1970
2009-01-20, 14:12
I believe Broader also offers MCCI members a discount.

darren
2009-01-20, 22:48
Normally I would never suggest this as a tech. Lucas makes a great trans additive that will buy you some time for seal issues. I dont like any of that mechanic in a can stuff. The Lucas product does actually work. We have used it for customers and used it myself in a 604 V6 Acclaim. The seals were to the point it wouldnt move cold. The Lucas got rid of about 90% of the shifting problems. I was blown away. In the end its going to need surgery but if you need some time it does work.

Maverick Barber
2009-01-21, 06:56
Thanks Darren. I will pick some up today. nothing to lose at this point. Thanks again.

Maverick Barber
2009-01-21, 07:01
Thanks to everyone who posted. Would the shift kit be something a beginner like myself could do? Would it be best to buy the parts and have someone take the tranny out, rebuild, then replace the tranny? What would you do? I don't mind trying, I just don't have anyone physically here to show me what to do. on a scale of 1 to 10 how difficult would it be to rebuild the tranny for someone with some technical abilities?

darren
2009-01-21, 22:17
Thanks to everyone who posted. Would the shift kit be something a beginner like myself could do? Would it be best to buy the parts and have someone take the tranny out, rebuild, then replace the tranny? What would you do? I don't mind trying, I just don't have anyone physically here to show me what to do. on a scale of 1 to 10 how difficult would it be to rebuild the tranny for someone with some technical abilities?

C4 are very basic but you dont want to have to do it more than once. I would suggest someone with experience in Automatics. All it takes is a nicked seal or missed thrust washer .....
The shift kits are following instructions. Fairly simple.

PaulS
2009-01-22, 04:05
First, fix the transmission problem. Use the "mechanic in a can" to buy a bit of time but don't put a shift kit in the transmission until it is rebuilt. No shift kit made will make a worn out transmission new again.
There is a Haynes "Tech Book" on rebuilding Ford automatics that makes it fairly easy to rebuild your C4 and a good video is available from "Bad Shoe" productions that shows in detail each step. Once the C4 is rebuilt you can easily install the valve body kit before you reinstall the valve body. One quick note on master rebuild kits:
They do not come with a new "Green Stripe" modulator, front band, rear band servo piston/seal unit, or any thrust washers or bushings you might need to replace. (you WILL need to replace the first three items on the list - bushings and thrust washers are anyone's bet but you should replace the #9 thrust washer as it takes all the load under acceleration.
I usually repace all the thrust and most of the bushings to bring it all back to minimum tollerance.

Maverick Barber
2009-01-30, 06:41
Thanks everyone, but I have parked the Mav until I get a transmission. I put in the Lucas transmission fix and drove it for about 2 days and the following day I had a puddle of tranny fluid under the car that my wife noticed. (so I had to hear the whole speech about why did I buy that old car anyway):huh:. I plan on buying the one from broader performance. there are alot of used c4's for sale from 100 to 250 dollars but I don't want someone else's problem. i will always try to buy high performance parts from now on. they just outlast the autozone and advance auto parts. thanks guys. i'll let you know when i'm back running again.

robrobl
2009-02-27, 02:50
having a hair pulling time with my tranny, it wont go into any drive gear, but has reverse and park. ive replaced the filter and tranny fluid and didnt find any shavings. any help is appreciated.

rthomas771
2009-02-27, 06:13
having a hair pulling time with my tranny, it wont go into any drive gear, but has reverse and park. ive replaced the filter and tranny fluid and didnt find any shavings. any help is appreciated.What color was the fluid? Was it bright red or brown? My old trans acted the same and took about 8-10 minutes before it would engage.

PaulS
2009-02-28, 01:20
Robrobl,
The forward gears all have one thing in common, the forward clutches.
If the forward clutches are not engaging then you will have reverse but no forward gears.
If this is a new rebuild then I would suggest yu look at the sealing rings on the stator support (pump) and pressure test the clutches and bands with the valvebody off.
If you need help with this email me at:
paulstephens @ q . com
I can give you illistrations of how to pressure test the clutches and bands and walk you through what needs to be done to get the C4 on the road.

robrobl
2009-02-28, 01:39
The fluid goes in the normal color but every time i check it its a dark brown. ill see if thatll work and if that doesnt ill get back to you all and check the seals and soforth. its an all original, so the seeal are probably worn out. If nothing else, ill just have to get a new tranny, need time to work on it but havent got much time with work and all. The jobs going pretty bad so ill be doing somethign very very soon.

PaulS
2009-02-28, 01:49
If it is burning that fast then you probably need a rebuild.
If you replace the C4 check out Broader Performance - you may find its cheaper than getting a rebuilt C4 from other places and their street C4 will probably outlast you and your car.

FoMoDave
2009-03-26, 10:35
My c-4 will not shift into3rd gear .All other gears work fine.You can place it into D and go down the road but it will not go into high.R works fine,man. shifting 1 2 3 does not help. I have not been able to drive car at all as it won't go above @40.where do I start looking first?

Maverick Barber
2009-03-27, 10:37
FoMo,
I would suggest that you check the line coming off of the carburetor going to the tranny. Mine came off one time and it would not kick over to any other gear. It would just rev up really high. Check for holes and a tight seal starting from the carb (left side when lifting the hood) going to the right side of the tranny. Give it a shot.

PaulS
2009-03-27, 16:43
My c-4 will not shift into3rd gear .All other gears work fine.You can place it into D and go down the road but it will not go into high.R works fine,man. shifting 1 2 3 does not help. I have not been able to drive car at all as it won't go above @40.where do I start looking first?

FoMoDave,
Make sure the vacuum modulator is connected and fluid is NOT leaking into the hose that connects to it.
Make sure your down-shift rod/cable is working freely.
The only other place to look is in the valve body or governor.

lngroller
2009-04-23, 08:15
Great advice and Info Paul. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things!

Jeff S
2009-04-26, 10:21
When do C4's normally shift? I have a really long first gear, the thing sounds like its near redlining(car starts vibrating and rattling loudly) before it shifts...I think my second gear is gone.

PaulS
2009-04-26, 21:07
Try manually shifting 1-2. If it goes into neutral when it is supposed to be in 2nd then you know where the problem is. If it shifts OK manually then check your vacuum modulator hose to see if there is oil in it - if there is then replace it with a "Green Stripe" modulator.
When shifting in auto mode with LIGHT throttle it should shift 1-2 and 2-3 before you get across an intersection.

captainmack
2009-07-18, 12:56
Well I'm buying a 250 I6 to build up as a fun project, to eventually replace the 200 I6 I have now.
I went and saw it run in a 68 Falcon from which it will be pulled. I'm getting the tranny too.
Reverse gear works, and 2nd and 3rd too. No 1st gear. Any Ideas?
The guy is pulling the engine tranny this afternoon.
My 200 C4 transmission works great, but is the 250 tranny a V8 tranny (more clutch packs)as is the bellhousing? 250/302 bellhousing is the same and different from the 200 bellhousing.
The engine is D2DE-6015-AA so I know it is a 1972 combo (not a 68)...
Paul????? thnks, Mack

whisky
2009-07-25, 04:30
I am going to make an attempt to put together a complete diagnostics for the C4 in the following posts so that folks can go through step by step to find out what went wrong with that transmission that has been working fine - up 'til now....


Wow Paul... these are great articles... I have just brought my 72 Comet project 'to life'... (it's running on it's own for the first time - and yup - 650 cfm carbs are WA-A-AY too much for a 302.... :biglaugh: 2000 r.p.m. idle so far... tomorrow I'll tweak and try to get it down to 1500...

Anyhow.... my tranny is completely D.O.A. (C4 I guess) and through searching I've found several of your responses on diagnosing and dealing with problems...

thanks for all this info so I can tackle my dead tranny this weekend...

and BTW I think your ugly yellow trannies are beOOOtiful.... I like the idea of spotting oil leaks easy...

Thanks again!
Whisky

PaulS
2009-07-28, 17:46
Well I'm buying a 250 I6 to build up as a fun project, to eventually replace the 200 I6 I have now.
I went and saw it run in a 68 Falcon from which it will be pulled. I'm getting the tranny too.
Reverse gear works, and 2nd and 3rd too. No 1st gear. Any Ideas?
The guy is pulling the engine tranny this afternoon.
My 200 C4 transmission works great, but is the 250 tranny a V8 tranny (more clutch packs)as is the bellhousing? 250/302 bellhousing is the same and different from the 200 bellhousing.
The engine is D2DE-6015-AA so I know it is a 1972 combo (not a 68)...
Paul????? thnks, Mack

See if 1st gear works with manual low selected - the one way clutch is what holds low gear in drive so if it works in manual low that leaves the one-way clutch as the potential problem - will require a rebuild.

captainmack
2009-07-28, 20:04
Thanks Paul...
I do believe that if I use the C4 instead of the AOD I have as an option, that it will have to be rebuilt as a matter of good course. It was pulled last week so I can't test it as you suggested...Obvious test....I didn't think of it at the time. Duh..
You seem like the guy.. How much to ship a tranny from 90245 to you....
I really like the idea of the AOD behind my built 250 but is the extra weight, HP loss (parasitic drag?)gonna kill me and is a '84 AOD worth foolin' with? Upgrading the oil, bands etc.... wish you were down here in LA..lol

PaulS
2009-07-31, 09:28
The 84 AOD is practically worthless with a 302. In 85 they did away with the 3-4 accumulator which was a big step in the right direction but for a strong AOD on the street you shouldn't consider using anything built before 91. Then add the "A" or "A+" OD servo, the 14 roller one way clutch and the wide OD band from the later versions (late AODE or 4R70W).
To that add the "Power Pack" clutch sets and some mods to the valve body.
You end up with an AOD that is almost as strong as the C4 with minor mods to the cooling, lube and stator and an extra clutch in each pack. To make the AOD it will cost about $700 in parts - the C4 will cost about $250 in parts for the same power level and a bit more.
I don't ship transmissions - I only build locally. Try Jay at Broader Performance - he is reasonably priced and I would buy his transmissions if I didn't build my own. He sells top quality and ships from Texas to anywhere. Just tell him Paul from Seattle sent you.

johnson
2009-12-14, 20:36
ok, how about this. i put my car in park and it just kinda rolls back till it catches. what do i need to replace?

PAINTANK
2009-12-14, 20:56
Mine has morning sickness...dude...:16suspect

PaulS
2009-12-15, 18:36
ok, how about this. i put my car in park and it just kinda rolls back till it catches. what do i need to replace?

It could be a maladjustment of your linkage, a worn sector block at the shift lever, a worn park pawl or spring or that you need to stop completely before putting it in park.

PaulS
2009-12-15, 18:38
Mine has morning sickness...dude...:16suspect

It is time to get a rebuilt unit to swap or plan for having the car down while the transmission is rebuilt.
This would be a good time to have the TransGo 40-2 valve body reprogramming kit installed.

IdriveTRKs
2009-12-15, 19:50
This Post ROCKS!! It is so Awesome it is that your sharing this knowledge and replying to everyone too..
But this is why I went with a four speed Manual tranny out of a 1982 F-150 (fully syncronized) Thanks for the info, Phil

PaulS
2009-12-16, 12:17
This Post ROCKS!! It is so Awesome it is that your sharing this knowledge and replying to everyone too..
But this is why I went with a four speed Manual tranny out of a 1982 F-150 (fully syncronized) Thanks for the info, Phil

Phil, if you are as hard on clutches as I am I hope you think about a well built C4 each time you have to change your clutch. I do not "ride the clutch" but I do shift up and down a lot (even with the automatic) and I rarely get a year out of a decent clutch. I got real good at replacing them but it is never fun. I get more than 7 years from my C4s and never have a problem.

Erocker
2009-12-16, 13:29
Wow hey thanks Paul for the information U must been reading my mind this morning. I had just bought a car and noticed a couple issues you explained. It was 10 degrees warmer here today and I had to do some erands around town,morning sickness wasnt as bad as I went to Napa to get fluid (in case I need some in the future)type FA is what they had. Car shifted real smooth as I babied it for about 15 minutes around town then I took off and it worked ok. Reverse it shifts hard into, ujoints are good, idle is slow.There is also alot of slop in shifter on column afraid to leave it running in park without being in it. When weather warms up I will check linkage and grommits. OK now the more important stuff like dome light,plastic for window cranks,passenger mirror and gas cap. :thumbsup:

PaulS
2009-12-16, 17:27
adjust the bands and see if that helps with the clunk into reverse.
The rear band is:
Loosen lock nut (3/4" hex) and hold it while you torque the rear band adjuster (5/16 square) to 10 foot pounds. Then back the adjuster out 2 1/2 turns and hold it while you tighten the lock nut.
The front band adjustment is :
Loosen lock nut and hold it while you torque the adjuster to 10 foot pounds. Back it out 1 1/2 turns and hold it while you tighten the lock nut.
NOTE: those lock nuts have a seal on them so don't back them out any more than you have to, to get the adjuster to turn or you will have to replace them for leakage.

IdriveTRKs
2009-12-16, 23:15
Just wanted to let you know... I LOVE shifting gears being a truck driver & all. Also I know how to put a clutch in... I don't know how to rebuild an automatic tranny. So far the only issue I have had was breaking the oil pump rod.... The kid was driving that day, but he swears it wasn't him...It was me abusing it by reving her up and dumping the clutch... that is undecided! I think he was rapping her to much... he says it was me... Phil

PaulS
2009-12-18, 00:03
Phil,
That oil pump drive shaft usually breaks when the umbrella seals get hard and break up and then go through the pump - I've had it happen to me too.

rthomas771
2009-12-18, 00:59
I rarely get a year out of a decent clutch. I had real good luck with a Ford clutch. Here is a pic of the last one I replaced after 20 years service.
http://1bad6t.com/images/DSC00865_small.JPG http://1bad6t.com/images/DSC00868_small.JPG

Here is an Auto Zone clutch a few months old.

http://1bad6t.com/images/MVC-081F_small.JPG http://1bad6t.com/images/MVC-082F_small.JPG

PaulS
2009-12-18, 12:42
Mine just wear out - worse than your 20 year old clutch.

Jeff S
2009-12-18, 12:45
http://1bad6t.com/images/MVC-081F_small.JPG http://1bad6t.com/images/MVC-082F_small.JPG

Well there's your problem....
:rl:


What happened? did it shatter or fall apart?

Gasser57
2010-01-23, 16:55
I have a freshly built C4 with a performance shift kit. It won't shift into 3rd. It has reverse, but has never shifted into third. I have proper travel and spring tension on the kickdown lever. The vacuum line has no oil in it and the mod. is new. You mention on a previous reply to check the governor.....what should I look for? Dirt? Broken pieces? I don't know these very well, just wondering if there is anything else to look for. A local tranny guy said to jack it up and run it in reverse for 5 minutes to flush out anything that might jam up the governor, but it didn't work.The car I bought is from L.A., I had it shipped here, and once I got it running and driving, I realized the problem. The drivetrain is new, never driven, but now I can't go back to the builder because they are 1000's of miles away. Any ideas? Thanks.

PaulS
2010-01-24, 22:27
If you have all gears but third then there is a problem in the seals of the direct drum, sticky valve body, 2-3 shift valve, or governor.
If you can take it for a drive and start in manual low, shift to second about 15 mph and then into 3rd at 30 and see if it shifts that way. Then using drive use moderate throttle and see where it shifts into 2nd and then 3rd. If it won't shift into third then take it someplace where you can get your speed up to about 75 and see if it shifts at 75 or before. It might be that the vacuum modulator pin is jammed into the valve and not letting it move with the vacuum. Try pulling the modulator and re-installing it making sure to get the pin in place in the hole in the valve - that valve might be in backwards.
Those are my thoughts off the top of my head. I hope it helps.

Gasser57
2010-01-27, 18:29
Thanks for the info! You really know your stuff!

PaulS
2010-01-27, 18:35
After 35+years you get to know a transmission pretty well.
Thanks for the comments and I hope it helps.

74mavCoryE.
2010-03-09, 20:32
Hoping you can add to this. My C4 behind a 302 sat for about 12 years before I resurected the car. I drained all the fluid including the torque converter and changed the filter etc. transmission actually shifts really good through all gears under slow to medium aceleration. but on harder acceleration 2 things happen. 1 it shifts from 1st to second way to early about 3000rpm like 30 mi / hr and it will stay in 2nd nicely until 5000 + but slips badly into 3rd like if I don't let off it would likely burn up. I rebuilt the motor and used comp XE 262 cam (not big enough to cause vacuum issues I thought) anywy just looking for the best sequence of test / repairs to do. in the best order.

PaulS
2010-03-09, 23:50
It sounds to me like the frictions have glazed. When a transmission sits for a time the frictions dry out. When you put fluid in the transmission and take it for a spin the friction material is still not soaked with oil and the material glazes over and becomes very smooth and hard. Then they slip - and it gets worse.
Once the frictions become glazed the only fix is to replace them.
The way to prevent it is to fill the transmission with as close to four quarts as the C4 will hold without starting the engine. Let it soak for at least 20 minutes before you start it. Then start the engine with the transmission in Park and fill the transmission to 1/2 way between the FULL and ADD mark. With the wheels off the ground run it through all the gears several times and then top the fluid off to 1/2 way between the FULL and ADD marks. Shut the engine off, lower the car, and take it for a short drive at low speeds monitoring the shifts and feel. Check the Fluid level with the engine idling in Park. Just keep it 1/2 way Between FULL and ADD on the dipstick. Let the engine sit overnight and then drive it normally.
This process can prevent glazing of the friction materials but the only cure after it hapens is a complete overhaul.
Sorry for the bad news.

74mavCoryE.
2010-03-10, 22:42
I was thinking i can live with the sloppy shift from 2nd to 3rd....as it is only when I am hard on the gas... the problem I have more so is the horiible early shift from 1st to 2nd at like 3000 or so. I can do it manually but would like it to shift between 4500 and 5000 on its own if that is possible. if not I can live with it until I drum up the cash for a TCI unit or something. don't need radical but nice firm shifts in the 5000 range would be cool.I had a c6 kitted years ago tied to a 390 and it would shift religiously at 4800RPM and the tires would chirp every time. If I can do this by changing the mod valve and adjusting the band (until I get a new transmission) this would be cool. any thoughts?

PaulS
2010-03-11, 12:19
By early shift at 3000 I will assume that you are talking about a wide open throttle shift and not normal street driving.
Try disconnecting the modulator hose and plugging it - If it then shifts at around 45-4800 rpm then reconnect it and make sure the throttle is fully opening with the gas pedal and that the kick down linkage is travelling completely to the stop (less than .060" play at Wide Open Throttle (WOT).
If those items are properly adjusted then you might check your manifold vacuum at the time it shifts. If you have manifold vacuum above 10" Hg then your carb is too small. Manifold vacuum over-rides the governor.
You should be using a "Green stripe" modulator with a modulator pin that is 1.625" (1 5/8") long. You might have a stuck governor - you can get at it by removing the tail housing and pulling the four small bolts that hold it on. Disassemble (keep track of how the valves, springs and shim come out of it) polish each valve with 600 grit emery paper and lube with some Vaseline before installation. They should move freely in their bores. Clean the small thimble filter and reinstall it in the governor mounting block before remounting the governor on the tail shaft. Use a new gasket on the tail housing and put a thin film of loctite or permatex 518 on both sides.
If none of that fixes it then you will have to remove the transmission to go further.
I would recommend a Broader Performance (http://www.broaderperformance.com) C4 over any other builder. You get a much more reliable transmission for less money.

juniorteck
2010-03-22, 21:53
I rebuilt my c4 last year and have about 300 miles on it now. It wasn't a stock rebuild but it was my first auto trans rebuild. A circlip had come off inside the tailshaft and the guts of the trans had started moving backwards adn started wearing on the housing causing me to lose 1st gear. I rebuilt it and everything was great. I do not use the van modulator or kickdown as of yet, I was still breaking in the new motor also. Yesterday I went to back up and there was no reverse, and selecting 1st manually also didn't work. I finally got reverse after about 2 mintues and the car went into 1st while in D but not if manaully selecting, it would go in second then. (I have a rachet shifter in the car)
The fluid is full and clean, The linkage is adjusted properly but I redid it to be sure. I tried to readjust the Reverse band but my torque wrench would not fit in the tunnel.... I did take the adjuster and turned it in an extra 1/2 turn.
I refired the motor and it still has no reverse or 1st. I also hooked up the vac mod, which was new with the trans rebuild kit, but it immediatly starting leaking when the car fired up and sucked trans fluid up into the carb/started smoking in the exhuast, I unhooked it again.

I am out of ideas. HELP????? Could the Circlip have come off again??? The trans ran fine home shifting by itself in D.........
Jarrad
jarrads@me.com

Ghostsoldier
2010-03-22, 22:23
Paul,
I've been reading your posts around the web for a while now, and I am thoroughly impressed with your amazing knowledge of the C4...that's why I came straight here when I had a problem with my new rebuild! ;)

I'm a motorhead (like most guys here), but the auto trans has always been a mystery to me; I decided to try to rebuild my own, and with the help from the Hayne's C4 Tech manual, it turned out to be a breeze, EXCEPT for one thing, and that's why I'm here....

After getting it reinstalled in the car, I fired it up (with the appropriate amounts of fluid, of course), and found that it wants to move FORWARD in all gearshift detents....reverse, neutral, etc, etc....boy, was I ever disappointed!:mad:

I was told by some that either the big attaching nut for the inner lever was loose (green arrow in pic), or the kick down lever is not engaging the kick down valve on the valve body (and I missed the alignment putting the vb back in--red arrow in pic)(this is not my trans--I snagged this pic off the web)....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/ghostsoldier/1962%20FORD%20FALCON/C4_loosenut_allgearsmovefoward-1.jpg

I was careful to replace the 3 check balls in the valve body rebuild (I used Vaseline), the shifter linkage hook-up is correct, and there were no leftover parts after the rebuild....and that's why I'm stumped! :cool:

Being the c4 guru that you are, I've come here to ask you what YOU think the problem is; any help you can give will be deeply appreciated, and plus, will save my 46-year old pride---I've got 5 bucks riding on a bet with my smart-arsed 18 year old son, because he said I couldn't rebuild it and make it work! :thumbs2:
Thanks,
Rob

PaulS
2010-03-23, 11:39
You didn't have the manual valve lined up with the pin on the "rooster comb". That pin has to go in the first groove in the manual valve spool. The down shift lever has to tuck into the space behind the kick-down valve. To make it easier on yourself when you install the valve body use a couple pieces of threaded rod (1/4" NC x 4" long and a couple of nuts to hold the valve body in place while you line up the two levers. Check them often as you start to install the bolts. It can be a real pain to get everything lined up when you are under the transmission and oil is dripping down your arms but it can be done.

Ghostsoldier
2010-03-23, 12:53
Thanks for the reply, Paul...I'm going to put her back up on the jack stands this afternoon, drop the pan, and get back into her guts....I'll let you know how it works out!
You're the best, man! :)
Rob

MSmithPDX
2010-03-23, 18:48
starting to get a little "morning sickness" and i want to put off rebuilding the c4 until i swap the engine. this is at least about a year away from happening. and im considering going to a manual 5 speed when i do swap the engine so im looking for some tips on prolonging the transmission. im very familiar with driving soft until it warms up and i check the fluid levels weekly just to make sure its not losing too much fluid (it had a serious fluid problem when i bought it that i fixed.) the engine is an I6 200. There are a couple of other minor issues besides the "morning sickness". the shift into second at mid to wide open throttle is pretty hard. sometimes it feels like a little flare is happening. tends to smooth out once its well warmed up though. no issues shifting into high.

i have driven mostly automatics and have been used to dealing with "morning sickness" once it sets in but i would really like to get on top of this before it gets bad without having to rebuild.

Ghostsoldier
2010-03-23, 20:36
SUCCESS!! :yahoo: Paul....I did just what you told me, and now that baby shifts like a scalded dog! :thumbs2:

I went out and dropped the pan, and lo, the lever was just like you said....the stud on the rooster comb was behind the end of the manual shift valve....I used three 1/4"x 4" x 20 studs and nuts as guides, and floated the valve body up into place, while aligning the rooster comb stud into the last groove of the manual valve...I felt it 'click' into place, and when I moved the shift lever, I could hear the kick-down valve "popping" as the lever released it and the manual valve slid out smoothly...I bolted that sucker up, replaced the pan, and refilled it; I started her up, and moved the shifter thru the motions, and had ALL the of the forward gears, reverse and neutral!

Although I have to take it on a longer test run tomorrow, I'm just stoked to know that the darn thing works, and that I rebuilt it correctly...and on top of that, I won my boy's 5 dollars! :2thumbs:

Thanks again, Paul, for your help and information...you are a life-saver! :)
Rob

PaulS
2010-03-24, 14:34
MSSmith,
Make sure your bands are adjusted.
Keep the oil level between the ADD and FULL marks with the engine idling in Park.
When you shift into gear first thing in the morning don't rev the engine to get it to go into gear - just waiy for it. That way you don't burn or glaze the clutches. Putting the transmission into manual low will increase the pressure so that may help.
I nursed mine for three years before getting time to build a good transmission for myself. when I tore the C4 down I found the forward clutch apply pison seal broken in two places and it was as hard as a carbon seal - and just as brittle.
If you give it time and let it warm a little before driving you can make it for a year.

PaulS
2010-03-24, 14:34
Rob,
Glad it worked out for you... do I get a cut of that $5?:)

Ghostsoldier
2010-03-25, 14:24
Rob,
Glad it worked out for you... do I get a cut of that $5?:)

I'll send you the whole 5 bucks, Paul! :clap:
Rob

juniorteck
2010-03-25, 22:36
PAUL,

I hope you can help me too. I posted a few days ago and you can see the bulk of my concerns but here is an update.

I had Reverse and 1st drop on my rebuilt C4. I adjusted the linkages, topped fluids etc, no help. I readjusted the low band, two turns out and now I have Reverse adn 1st!!. BUT.....
Reverse seems to sometimes not go into reverse unless I shift to drive first. maybe 20% of the time. AND, more importantly I cannot shirt to 1st manually? I works fine in D though?
THOUGHTS??

PaulS
2010-03-26, 22:28
Junior,
It works fine in drive... What year C4 are we talking about?
When you shift to manual low what happens?
When you put it in reverse what happens?
Did you check the oil with the engine idling in Park? Are you using type F fluid?
Did you torque the band adjuster to 10 foot pounds and back it out? if so it should have been backed out three turns - if you didn't torque it tp 10 foot pounds then it isn't adjusted. yet.
When are you trying to shift to manual low? (when it doesn't go in)

juniorteck
2010-03-27, 09:13
Thank u fo lr writing back Paul.

I'm cannot remember the exact year of the trans but I think it is an early one.
As a note I do not have the vac mod or kickdown hooked up.

I adjusted the band two days ago and got reverse back. It was not 10ft ibs. My torque wrench will not fit in the trans tunnel of my stang. I did not get manual low back though. When I first put the trans in reverse and man low were fine.

When I put it in drive it will shift perfectly up and down. If I'm slowing down and pull it to 1st it does not go down. It stays in 2nd. From a dead stop if I pull it to 1st it goes to 2nd.

I am running a synthetic trans fluid. It is full at idle in park warm. Not burnt, very clean.

juniorteck
2010-03-27, 09:17
I forgot to finish my thought. The band adjustment. I did readjust the band manually by feel. Tightened down an backed off two turns gave me reverse back.

PaulS
2010-03-27, 22:25
OK, first; synthetic fluid will not work well in your C4.
second; manual low will not engage until you get below 20 - 25 mph in a stock C4.
If it is a "Green Dot C4" (1964 - 1966) it has D1, D2, and Low gears. In D2 it starts in 2nd and shifts to 3rd. In D1 it starts in low shifts to 2nd and then to 3rd.
In low it should start in low gear and then around 25-30 it will shift to second - it will not hold first gear.
In Drive the low/reverse band is not used - the one-way clutch is all that holds it in low gear. You should feel no difference when you use manual low and low in drive.

If this is an early C4 and it has had the valve body changed to a later version the ports do not line up with the ports in the case and you may not have proper control over the gears with the shift lever.
You can find out what your the C4 is by looking right above the shift lever on the driver's side of the C4. There are two circles (you will have to use a wire brush to get the grease out of the way) in one of those circles there will be two numbers. On is the month and the other is the year. The other circle has one number and it is the day of the month.

juniorteck
2010-03-28, 06:02
Paul,

You certainly have a huge depth of knowledge on these old tranny's!

1. I am more than happy to drain/fill to TYPE F. Easy easy.

2. - I believe it to be an early C4. I've had it behind this Cleveland for about 6 years. It always shifted perfect but under heavy Nitrous use snapped a circlip internally and forced a rebuild last year. It does have a shift kit in it, same one it always had. So I can pull it to manual low at anytime and it engine breaks and holds 1st geat just fine.
After the rebuild it worked like it did for many years. All was fine including manual low till about a week ago. Nothing changed but Reverse quit and I noticed at the same time driving home than manual low quit but "D" shifted fine.
I took your advice and others and adjusted the Band and Voila I got reverse back but still no manual low. Could it be still a band adjustment? And/or the SYN fluid slipping etc etc?

Could we talk via telephone? You can send your tele to my email. Jarrads@me.com

THANKS!

FatherSon
2010-05-05, 12:51
PaulS I hope you can help. I just finished rebuilding my C4,(it wouldn't go into drive before) I finished it, drove it for about 2 miles and it went BAM! and then it lost all forward gears, and won't lock in park. It still wasn't shifting into drive. I am more concerned with the not moving at all problem though. The shifting is because I think that TCI sold me a bum valve body which has been a problem for a long time!

PaulS
2010-05-05, 18:35
It sounds like the lock-ring failed on the rear planet. The entire output shaft slips back when that happens. I don't think the valvebody caused this problem - did it shift properly while it was running?

FatherSon
2010-05-06, 07:24
Paul, thanks for responding so quickly. I feeling pretty disheartened about this, so thanks. I will bet that is the problem, but I am going to pull it out and pull it aprt and see. After having it apart I am not afraid to tear into it, and I will know more then.
Y'know it shifted exactly as it did before I rebuilt it, which is why I rebuilt it, it would not shift into drive, had to be manually shifted through first and second, but wouldn't down shift from 1 to 2 in drive, but would upshift in drive. (I'm a bit hazy on this last part, I hadn't driven the car in almost a year). I tried replacing the rod, vacuum mod, adjustments, etc. but nothing worked. Sorry for addressing two issues! Thanks again for your help.

PaulS
2010-05-06, 14:34
Well, if it had low and second and reverse then the packs are all ok. If you can move the output shaft rearward after removing the driveline then the lock ring is at least one of the problems. Not shifting into high could be a stuck governor, bad vacuum modulator or sticking valves in the valve body - 2-3 shift valve, modulator valve or a warped valve body.

If it had no reverse and no high and no engine braking in manual low then it could be the high clutch as dicussed and/or the reverse band. It sounds like you had multiple problems but that you corrected all but one when you "fixed" it. Let me know if I can be of any help.
NOTE: you can replace the "circlip" with an externam snapring of the correct thickness or machine (or have it machined) the groove to take a thicker snap ring.
What kind of shift kit did you install?

FatherSon
2010-05-06, 19:27
Thanks Paul, I'm gonna pull it apart in a few days, it's just such a bitch gettin it in and out of there. I did not put a shift kit into it, it has a TCI streetfighter valve body. I will be looking for the problems you mentioned, if nothing is horribly damaged hopefully it will be an "easy" fix. Thanks again for your help, you've been great!

Jerry'66
2010-05-20, 10:48
ok, i've read through the posts and was not able to find the answer i'm looking for so here go's.
i just finnished rebuliding my 74' C4 replaced everything minus hard parts and didnt touch the valve body. got it all hooked up, got about 10 miles out of it and it stopped shifting into my forward gears, reverse works fine. is it a possabilty that my valve or valves are sticking? or does it sound more like a pump issue? or am i completly off ?

PaulS
2010-05-20, 17:14
If reverse is working but you don't have any forward gears the the problem is not getting pressure to the forward clutches. It could be broken sealing rings on the stator support (the netal rings on the part of the pump that goes into the transmission) or a bad apply piston seal on the forward clutch. If you didn't have the pistons out and replace those rubber seals then that would be my best guess. Make sure you fill the transmission with the engine idling in Park - check it again. If the level is right then you should get ready to pull it out to make it right.

Jerry'66
2010-05-20, 19:36
i replaced the metal rings in which your infering, i replaced them with matching rings from the rebuild kit (size and diamiter).
this pistion your talking about, is it located in the valve, or within the clutch drum, cause if its the on in the clutch drum i did replace the "o" rings that go in it.

PaulS
2010-05-21, 20:19
Jerry,
I enjoyed talking with you on the phone.
I think you may have to take it at least down to the point you can air check everything to find where the problem is.
Keep us posted, OK?

Fastkarz
2010-06-01, 11:58
:tiphat: Paul

I hope you can help. :bowdown: My 72 V8 maverick has a C4 that is slow to go into first gear. I have had the vehicle 2 years and trans worked well. This summer it started a long delay going into first gear from park. Usually only after the trans warms up. The first shift of the day feels ok, but once its hot, the neutral to Drive or 1rst delay is 3-10 seconds.

My friend told me about aerated fluic, and the fluid level was too high, I removed about 1/2 quart, same problem.

Note- There is no kickdown cable from the carb, only the vacuum hose and B&M slap shifter connection. Can the lack of the kickdown cable kill first gear? or is the throttle pressure not enough to overcome governer pressure causing the delay?

Previous owner must have installed a shift kit because the 1-2 shift is great, so I don't know what was done to the first gear apply.

Getting ready to pull it out and try my hand at a rebuild.

Thanks for the help
Sean in NJ

PaulS
2010-06-01, 12:27
It sounds like a worn or soft seal in the forward clutch. That is the only active member in low gear. Does it go into reverse well? Reverse uses the direct clutch and rear band. If your C4 does the same thing in manual low then it is the forward clutch.
You fluid should be between the ADD and FULL marks on the dipstick with the engine idling and the transmission in Park. You should only use type "F" fluid in the C4.

Fastkarz
2010-06-01, 12:35
Paul

Thanks for the response. Looks like the trans is coming out :mad:

Sean

71mavk
2010-07-26, 10:45
Hello Paul,

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us. I have some questions for you. I just got done swapping a 351W, I used the same C4 that was on the 302. I've only replaced the filter and the gasket on the tranny and I installed a 3000 stall converter (from edgeracing).

Here are my issues.

1. The tranny will not go into first gear nor 2nd, 1st works for a little bit.
2. I don't have the vaccum hose connected from the carb yet.
3. I've added Type F fluid but I overfilled it, which I can resolve easily.
4. When I installed the converter, i only put a little bit of type F fluid in it, don't think it was enough since i put about 6 quarts after everything was installed and the car was idling in Park. Dipstick showed between the lines of Full and Do not add.

I've only ran the car 3 times around the block, and the tranny shifted fine, until I tried to do a little burn out :drive:, the tranny felt like it disengaged and it wouldn't go after that. Reverse still works. I don't know the history behind this tranny, however i'm debating on just buying one or dealing with all these issues??? Help please.

Thanks again

PaulS
2010-07-26, 14:36
71Mavk,
You need to be more clear on your problem. You said it din't go into first or second and then you said 1st worked for a little while. Then you say you took it around the block and it worked fine until you tried to do a burn out.

Can you be a little clearer as to what happened when? What are the symptoms now?
Start by rechecking the fluid level while the engine is idling in Park. Get the level right first. Then tell me what works and what doesn't and whether you are in a manual gear (man 1st -2nd) or in Drive.

71mavk
2010-07-27, 01:06
My apologies, the tranny was fine when I installed it. I drove the car around the block 3 or 4 times and it shifted fine, I drove it up to 50 mph. Not until I tried to do a little burn out, that's when it went. The tranny would not go in drive nor in 2nd. 1st worked but only went 10 miles an hour. I checked the fluid and it was overfilled maybe about a 1/4 inch over the Do not add mark on the dipstick.

Since I don't the history of this tranny, I don't know if I should rebuild it or just deal with this, it maybe something simple.

Thanks

PaulS
2010-07-27, 12:04
Does first gear work in Drive?
Is this an auto shift valve body or a manual shift valve body?
If you don't know what you have it is best to start from scratch with a new transmission that you know is built with the parts to handle your application.
What part of the world are you in?

gsxnbyu
2010-07-27, 18:50
Ok I took the car out on the highway for the first time and the car got very hot and was stagged up for a good while. I made a 1/4 mile blast went to make a u turn and it wouldnt go in first. I had to use second. The next day I took it out and made a u turn again and it didnt go in first. Get back home and went from P-R-N-1 10 times and worked fine. The car has slowed down in the 60 ft by .2.
So I pulled the trans and converter guy removed the sprag its now spragless. That was a problem. While he was fixxing the converter I went threw the trans and put in back together everything looked fine.

I get it back in the car today and the thing wont go in first. I here it shift out of neutral into first but its binding I quess and wheels wont turn. All other gears are work fine. The trans was completely rebuilt 20 passes ago ago and less than 50 miles.
Your help would be greatly appreciated. The trans is a reverse manual valve body. I am sure it is an internal problem. The linkage, lines and shifter are all hooked up correctly and has correct amount of fluid.

PaulS
2010-07-28, 12:29
Ok I took the car out on the highway for the first time and the car got very hot and was stagged up for a good while. I made a 1/4 mile blast went to make a u turn and it wouldnt go in first. I had to use second. The next day I took it out and made a u turn again and it didnt go in first. Get back home and went from P-R-N-1 10 times and worked fine. The car has slowed down in the 60 ft by .2.
So I pulled the trans and converter guy removed the sprag its now spragless. That was a problem. While he was fixxing the converter I went threw the trans and put in back together everything looked fine.

I get it back in the car today and the thing wont go in first. I here it shift out of neutral into first but its binding I quess and wheels wont turn. All other gears are work fine. The trans was completely rebuilt 20 passes ago ago and less than 50 miles.
Your help would be greatly appreciated. The trans is a reverse manual valve body. I am sure it is an internal problem. The linkage, lines and shifter are all hooked up correctly and has correct amount of fluid.

I don't understand what "stagged up" is. I have never heard that term.

Converters don't work without a sprag - that would either let the stator turn freely or it would be locked solid - neither of these would cause no low or a low gear lock-up but they would cause low power or engine run away.

If this valve body has a trans brake then I would say the trans brake is faulty. If it doesn't have a trans brake then there may be a problem with the valve body. It would have to be bleeding to multiple circuits - holding the transmission in two or more gears when it is put in low. TCI has had some problems (which they won't admit to) like this with their valve bodies. If you have another valve body try it to see if the problem clears up. (even if it is a stock valve body)
This is why I recommend Broader Performance, Jay doesn't have problems like this and if he ever did he would fix it.

gsxnbyu
2010-07-28, 13:07
you stage up before the tree goes green. so the car was up on the stall generating heat for a lengthy period of time . it is a drag car. yes there are spragless converters, this stater is locked to the gear. two things that came to mind was the trans brake and the valve body how would i check either of these?

PaulS
2010-07-28, 13:32
you stage up before the tree goes green. so the car was up on the stall generating heat for a lengthy period of time . it is a drag car. yes there are spragless converters, this stater is locked to the gear. two things that came to mind was the trans brake and the valve body how would i check either of these?

To check the trans brake you will have to contact the manufacturer - they know how it is supposed to work and should be able to diagnos it.
The valve body can be checked on a function tester - like a valve body dyno. You could also test the trans brake operation on one too. Other than that you would have to disassemble the valve body, check the valve, channel casting, and separator plate for flatness (on a lapping table) and alignment. Follow that with making sure all the valve spools slide in their bores under their own weight. Then reassemble making sure not to warp it by over or uneven torque to the fasteners.
Does that help?

gsxnbyu
2010-07-28, 17:31
Yes. Thanks for the help. I will find a trans shop to test it tomorrow, and i will update you on the outcome.

cometvirgin
2010-07-29, 10:15
I can manually shift the car but when in automatic "D" the car won't shift beyond 1st gear. Am I missing a vacuum or not have it hooked up right?? Please help. Thanks

PaulS
2010-07-30, 00:56
Cometvirgin,
Unless the transmission has a manual valve body (some 1970 C4s came that way from the factory) then it should shift when put in drive. If it goes into third when you shift it to Drive (below 50) then you have a manual valve body.
If you have a vacuum modulator then it should be connected to a good manifold vacuum source, run through a 1/4" (minimum) steel tube and connect to the modulator with a short piece of hose.

71mavk
2010-07-30, 11:40
Does first gear work in Drive?
Is this an auto shift valve body or a manual shift valve body?
If you don't know what you have it is best to start from scratch with a new transmission that you know is built with the parts to handle your application.
What part of the world are you in?

No, the car won't even move in drive. I don't know if it's an auto or a manual shift body, this is my first time dealing with Mavericks and V8 engines. All I know its the original tranny C4 automatic that came with a 302. I'm in New Mexico. I was thinking about buying a tranny from Broader performance just to be save and not worry about this. Thanks for your help.

PaulS
2010-07-30, 22:21
You can't go wrong with one of Jay's transmissions.

green69
2010-08-28, 13:55
Hi I am new to the forum. I have a problem with my newly rebuilt C4 and I am hoping that someone can point me in the right direction.
The transmission is a 1973 C4 that was rebuilt using the B&M transmission in a box kit, with a new B&M 2400 stall converter. The problem that I have is when starting from a stop in drive the transmission starts in second gear and then shifts in to third it won’t start off in first gear. The only time it will start in first is if I shift it in to first. Other than this problem I am very happy with it.

PaulS
2010-08-29, 00:07
This sounds like a stuck govenor valve.
You can access the governor with the transmission in the vehicle by removing the driveline and tail housing of the transmission.
This is a messy job but it is easier than removing and installing the transmission.

cometvirgin
2010-09-03, 22:18
Paul,

It is a vacuum setup. I have two lines coming up from the tranny. Not to sound stupid, but where do these go? I am about to put on the new head I just picked up and she will be up and running by tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks,

Tim, "cometvirgin"

PaulS
2010-09-03, 22:44
The larger of the tubes goes to the rear port on the modulator and to manifold vacuum.
The smaller tube conects to the smaller front port on the modulator and goes to the EGR vacuum line.
You can improve performance by disconnecting the smaller line and plugging it at the source and just run the rear line.

None of this will keep it from starting in low gear when Drive is selected at a stop.

green69
2010-09-04, 20:33
This sounds like a stuck govenor valve.
You can access the governor with the transmission in the vehicle by removing the driveline and tail housing of the transmission.
This is a messy job but it is easier than removing and installing the transmission.


Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Paul.
I pulled the tail housing and the govenor, only to find that the govenor had come apart. Have you ever seen this happen before? What do you think would have caused this. The parts in the govenor were found in the tail housing and the washer was in the pan with the aluminum shavings.

Thanks Derrill

cometvirgin
2010-09-07, 05:40
Thank you Paul. I put the new head on this weekend and she's running great and shifting like a champ. Thanks again!!

PaulS
2010-09-07, 22:03
Glad you got everything working well.

acme
2010-09-28, 08:39
Hi

I have a problem with the trans of my 1970 Maverick.
When the engine and transmission are cold, my car doesn't want to stay into forward or reverse gear. The car mouve 1 or 2 yards then stop like if I put it in netral. I have to accélérate one or two times before the car start to move again for 2 yards and stop again. When every thing is hot, it work fine.
Is it the "morning sickness" that you explain on the first page of this topic or is it something else?

Thank for your help

Sorry for my english ......

PaulS
2010-09-28, 23:02
It is the symptoms of classic "Morning sickness".
The more you rev it to get it into gear - the faster the transmission will stop working at all. Plane to get it rebuilt - soon.
Check your local prices and then compare it to the $850 that Broader Performance (http://www.broaderperformance.com) will charge for a C4 rated at 500hp. It may be cheaper to get one from them than it is to get it rebuilt locally. You will need to use your converter and bellhousing.

PaulS
2010-09-29, 20:22
For those who are looking for the TransGo 40-2 Reprogramming kit and not finding it look here:

www.bulkpart.com (http://www.bulkpart.com/) has them here:

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=C-4vbkits (http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=C-4vbkits)

The price is very good so it is all you should need.
Paul

acme
2010-09-30, 04:07
Thanks for your answer.


Now I know what I have to do...


Is it hard to rebuild a C4?
I'm not a bad mechanic but I never do that. I have read that there is no need of specifics tools to do that.
I live in France and I let you imagine the shipping charge if I order a transmission in the US. So, if I can do it myself it will be less expensive.


My level in mecanics: Rebuilt a manual transmission and built a turbo engine for a VW Beetle

PaulS
2010-09-30, 16:02
Order the "bad Shoe Production" video on how to rebuild your C4.
The parts you are likely to need are:
Master overhail kit
intermediate band (flex style)
Reverse servo piston assembly
Bushing kit
Thrust washer kit
Green stripe vacuum modulator
10 quarts of type "F" fluid
and maybe:
one-way clutch spring and roller kit
Front pump gear set
and if you want to make it better than ever:
TransGo 40-2 reprogramming kit
Large cooler kit for in front of the radiator.

If you use all these parts your transmission will shift well and last a lot longer than a stock rebuild.

acme
2010-10-01, 04:47
I fond all the parts in the TCI catalog except the Reverse servo piston assembly.


Is TCI a good brand for those parts?
What brand made Reverse servo piston assembly? I prefer brand I can order on Summit web site if it's possible.....


Green stripe vacuum modulator is for 74-86 C4. Mine is from 1970. So, that should be the white stripe vacuum modulator. The green stripe can work with my transmission?




I asked "bad Shoe Production" if they send their videos in Europe but I think they only sell them in north america.....I 'm waiting their answer....

PaulS
2010-10-01, 16:01
If your modulator screws in then you will want to use the White stripe modulator.
TCI is an expensive place to buy parts - try www.bulkpart.com (http://www.bulkpart.com) - for a better price.

acme
2010-10-03, 12:13
Thanks for your help.

inlandjandl
2010-10-06, 17:04
I am hoping I can pick Paul S's brain. I have a C4 with a TCI reverse manual valve body, fully rollerized, and all aluminum drums. I have had two professional trans builders look at it, but no one can fix the dreaded 2-3 flare. I have tried the H servo with cuts in it like TCI recommends, and a standard A servo, but nothing changes it. Front band has been adjusted from 1-3 turns out, and everywhere in between. Absolutely looks brand new inside, and no burnt clutches, so the trans is not slipping. Must be something with the apply timing and release of the servo. Could it be a leak in the servo, or something like that? Any help would be greatly appreciated, and if you need more info, please let me know. Thanks.

Jeff

PaulS
2010-10-06, 23:44
The dreaded 2-3 flare is caused by the 2nd gear servo releasing before the direct clutch can apply. You can adjust the band tighter (causing band wear and added friction that slows you down) or use less clearance in the forward pack.
Just a note here - I don't believe you should ever use the "H" servo with the apply side deleted as was mentioned in your post. It can apply the band with enough force to break cases if the line pressure is also high.
I designed a kit that can be installed to eliminate (and even tune) the 2-3 flare. The valve body has to be removed and it is modified - TCI will not like this but it does cure the 2-3 flare. The modifications will likely void any warranty so you decide if you want to do this or have TCI fix it.
You can contact me through email to order the 2-3 Flare Eliminator kit at:
paulstephens @ q . com (without the spaces)

PS: I love TCI - nearly all their transmissions have this problem!

inlandjandl
2010-10-07, 09:16
I have tried the band adjustment with no success. Line pressure is at 180 across the board. I have also tried an A servo, but that didn't change things either. My friend that is a builder wanted to come by tonight and air check everything. He thinks this might be a cause of a leak across the servo shaft from a worn out case. Any thoughts on that? Thanks.

Jeff

PaulS
2010-10-08, 02:07
I doubt that is the case with a C4. I have seen some with wear but the leakage is minimal with oil going through.
If the "H" servo didn't cure the flare then no servo change will - it is the largest of all the servos and will disengage the slowest. A leak across the separator plate or a misaligned passage might cause the problem but it would more likely be a passage to the servo release that was too big or leakage at the direct clutch apply (stator support sealing rings, apply piston seal leak or cracked piston). The release of the servo has to be slowed down or the application of the direct clutches has to be sped up.

inlandjandl
2010-10-08, 11:42
Paul,
The H servo I have has the 3 cuts in the inner lip area, so would that allow the flare, and if I put in a stock H servo would it help eliminate the flare. I also picked up an R servo that I was going to try as a next step. What are your thoughts on that. Or can I just buy your kit for adjustment, and use some recommended letter of servo? Everything else in the trans is brand new, so I doubt it has anything cracked or worn, but I have learned to not overlook anything. Also 2 professional builders have both been through it, and can't see any issues. Your continuing help is greatly appreciated, and I know we will eventually figure it out. Then whatever solves it can possibly be a solution for others with the same problem.

PaulS
2010-10-10, 01:40
The "R" servo will not cure your flare - it will be the same as the "H" servo. Changing to the stock "H" servo will perform the same on release - The large part of the piston is the release side and that is what you are using now for both the apply and release. If the maker, TCI, and your local experts can't come up with a cure then send me a request with a $20 Postal Money order and I will mail you a kit. It will come with pictures and complete instructions so you can install it yourself.

inlandjandl
2010-10-11, 11:16
Paul,
Is your kit something I can install while the trans is in the car, or do I have to drop it again? Since I just put it back in yesterday, I am not really ready to tackle it again. I have 4 race weekends in a row coming up, so I was hoping to have it fixed by then, and I wouldn't mind trying your kit if I can do it in the car. Otherwise, I will just have to close out the year with a 2-3 flare everytime. The thing that is weird to me, is that I have no burnt clutches or band from the flare. Also my onboard dataloger shows a spike in driveshaft speed when the flare happens. Could it be possible that I am just slipping tires on the 2-3 shift, and there isn't really a flare problem at all. I seriously doubt it though, because my car is a 300hp stock eliminator car on a 9" wide radial slick. Any thoughts on that one?

PaulS
2010-10-11, 18:55
From message 123...
I designed a kit that can be installed to eliminate (and even tune) the 2-3 flare. The valve body has to be removed and it is modified - TCI will not like this but it does cure the 2-3 flare. The modifications will likely void any warranty so you decide if you want to do this or have TCI fix it.
You can contact me through email to order the 2-3 Flare Eliminator kit at:
paulstephens @ q . com (without the spaces)

PS: I love TCI - nearly all their transmissions have this problem!

You don't have to remove the transmission... only the valve body (which can be hard enough from under the car).

toddmkeller
2010-10-11, 21:29
Hey Paul,

I'm having issues with my C4. It will go into low and second but when it reaches the point to shift to third it will shift into neutral (or what seems like neutral) and just rev. Reverse is an issue as well. After its warmed up a bit it will go into reverse gear but doesn't want to when its cold. When its cold it puts a load on the motor when you put it into reverse but doesn't go anywhere. When I can get it to go into reverse after it warming up a few minutes it engages pretty hard and doesn't slip. It goes into park and neutral just fine. Trans fluid looks good and vacuum modulator has vacuum at the modulator. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Todd

inlandjandl
2010-10-12, 13:25
From message 123...


You don't have to remove the transmission... only the valve body (which can be hard enough from under the car).

Paul,
I tried emailing you to get your shipping info, but haven't heard anything yet. Maybe I got the email wrong, but I want to order a kit. Would I be able to get it in time to install before next weekends race? Let me know. Thanks.

Jeff

PaulS
2010-10-12, 16:50
Hey Paul,

I'm having issues with my C4. It will go into low and second but when it reaches the point to shift to third it will shift into neutral (or what seems like neutral) and just rev. Reverse is an issue as well. After its warmed up a bit it will go into reverse gear but doesn't want to when its cold. When its cold it puts a load on the motor when you put it into reverse but doesn't go anywhere. When I can get it to go into reverse after it warming up a few minutes it engages pretty hard and doesn't slip. It goes into park and neutral just fine. Trans fluid looks good and vacuum modulator has vacuum at the modulator. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Todd

Todd,
It sounds like you have a leaking or broken direct clutch apply piston seal. When in reverse the direct clutch applies without the forward drum but the pressure is higher. That would explain why reverse works after it warms up but high gear never works.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you are in for a rebuild.

inlandjandl
2010-10-13, 18:51
Hey Paul S. What do I have to do to buy a kit from you? PM me if necessary. Thanks.

Jeff

PaulS
2010-10-15, 20:13
You need to send me a Postal Money order for $20 and request an "anti-flare kit" for the C4.
I don't ship before payment clears which is why I require Postal Money Orders - they are as good as cash. That way I can ship your order the same or next day that I get your order.
You can email me here (paulstephens@q.com) for the address and Phone number. I haven't receoved any e-mail orders in the last two weeks so it is likely that you have a wrong address.

inlandjandl
2010-10-16, 12:07
I sent a second request. If you don't get it, PM me with your info so I can get one ordered. Thanks.

George20
2012-02-26, 20:54
Hello. This my first post. I recently rebuilt my 1970 c4 because it was all original and slipping when shifting into 3rd under heavy throttle. Its behind a fresh rebuilt 302 that is only slightly over stock hp. (Four barrel, alum. intake, matched cam.) I replaced both sets of clutches and steels and all the thrust washers and all the rubber seals on both pistons in the drums. Also the servo and pump seals. I did not go into the front pump or disassemble the valve body. The problem is that is still slips shifting into 3rd under hard throttle. It also now slips shifting into 2nd under hard throttle. It will also shift into 3rd on its own while the gear lever is still in 2nd when rpms reach the low 4000's but will downshift back to 2nd when you let offf the throttle and slow down. When you leave in D and drive normal it shifts fine thru all three gears. What did I do wrong or neglect to do during the rebuild? Thanks in advance for any info....George

PaulS
2012-06-20, 00:51
Since my second operation I am unable to do much so I am providing my anti-flare kit designs and instructions for anyone to use for PERSONAL use only. It is not OK to sell the kit unless you have written permission to do so and I have provided that permission to only one individual - Greg.
You can build your own kit and install it in your transmission for free. No commercial use is permitted by anyone other than Greg.
Paul

captainmack
2012-06-20, 01:03
Glad to hear from you Paul, hope you're hanging in there.

Speechless35
2012-10-15, 17:16
Sometimes When I Shift My Cat To Park My Car Tends To Move Forward A Couple Yards Before Stopping..... WTH Is Wrong?? 76 Ford Maverick Sedan Automatic

Speechless35
2012-10-15, 17:17
Sometimes When I Shift My Cat To Park My Car Tends To Move Forward A Couple Yards Before Stopping..... WTH Is Wrong?? 76 Ford Maverick Sedan Automatic

Speechless35
2012-10-15, 17:18
Sometimes When I Shift My Cat To Park My Car Tends To Move Forward A Couple Yards Before Stopping..... WTH Is Wrong?? 76 Ford Maverick Sedan Automatic

Craig Selvey
2012-10-15, 20:50
Sometimes When I Shift My Cat To Park My Car Tends To Move Forward A Couple Yards Before Stopping..... WTH Is Wrong?? 76 Ford Maverick Sedan Automatic


A couple yards....that is like 6 feet. Are you sure it is moving that far?

Speechless35
2012-10-15, 20:57
Ok ok it moves a "little" bit forward after I put it in park

Craig Selvey
2012-10-15, 21:12
Ok ok it moves a "little" bit forward after I put it in park


That is normal.

sspargo
2012-12-17, 12:52
Seems there are some very knowledgeable folks about C4 transmissions on here, so was wondering if you could help me with the following.

My C4 slips on the upshift between 2nd and 3rd under low acceleration when it is warm, seems to be fine once it is in 3rd, no slipping at all.

It does not do it when it is cold, or under a decent amount of acceleration, also, not sure if it is related, but the shift from 1st to 2nd is pretty hard, and seems to get worse when it warms up too, anyone have any ideas on what may be causing this?

Thanks, Scott

xagt351
2013-05-14, 03:29
I am living in Lower Hutt New Zealand and have a problem with my C4
I bought a reconditioned C4 and we modified it to take a B&M Transpak kit Performance mods done to trans. I have fitted to motor and installed. Seems to get second gear then when you take your foot of the gas shifts down to 1st and stays there. I have reverse. I thought it maybe the ratchet shifter needing tuning so I reversed up the drive so I can jack up. When I stopped the car and turned it off I heard fluid pouring out and looked under car to find the intermediate servo had pull the thread on the bottom bolts that hold it in place and trans oil was pouring out of there. I have had no luck finding anyone that knows what has gone wrong. We think we may have a valve around the wrong way.

jbates93
2013-06-19, 16:40
i just dropped a 302 into my 1975 comet with a c4 and it will not shift out of first. even if i shift through the gears manually it stays in first. it was working 2 weeks ago before i put in the 302. any advice??

wp100
2013-08-23, 10:47
Hi Paul, I have read through your posts and really appreciate you sharing your C4 knowledge and willingness to offer help others to resolve their issues! I'm hoping you can help me out with mine. I've got a 1965 C4 in a Falcon (sorry to bring a "foreign" car to this Maverick/Comet site) behind a 289 that has run really well after a miner overhaul I did three or four years ago (replaced bands and some thrust washers to bring the tolerances back to specs, the clutch packs looked good at the time). A month or so ago it started to delay three or four seconds going into reverse, but only after it warmed up. When first started, when its cold, it goes into reverse immediately. All the other gears engage properly, including low gear, even after it warms up. I'm thinking it could be the reverse band servo piston, but was told by a friend that it could be a problem in the valve body. Given your knowledge of C4s, I thought I would come to you for advice. Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Comet Fever
2013-08-23, 11:12
Hi Paul, I have read through your posts and really appreciate you sharing your C4 knowledge and willingness to offer help others to resolve their issues! I'm hoping you can help me out with mine. I've got a 1965 C4 in a Falcon (sorry to bring a "foreign" car to this Maverick/Comet site) behind a 289 that has run really well after a miner overhaul I did three or four years ago (replaced bands and some thrust washers to bring the tolerances back to specs, the clutch packs looked good at the time). A month or so ago it started to delay three or four seconds going into reverse, but only after it warmed up. When first started, when its cold, it goes into reverse immediately. All the other gears engage properly, including low gear, even after it warms up. I'm thinking it could be the reverse band servo piston, but was told by a friend that it could be a problem in the valve body. Given your knowledge of C4s, I thought I would come to you for advice. Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

PaulS has not made a post on this site in over a year. He was having some health issues and I hope he is OK. You might continue to read through his prior posts for the answer to your question(s).

wp100
2013-08-23, 11:21
Thanks for the reply, Don. I have read all of Paul's post and could not find my "reverse only slow engagement" issue. However, I didn't notice his last post was back in June 2012, I too hope he's doing well. I'll continue to watch for any other member to reply. Thanks again for your quick reply.

danford1
2013-11-07, 19:28
I have a 66 Fairlane, 289, C4 green dot shift pattern.
Rev is fine. 1st is fine. D1 where it starts in 2 nd then shifts to 3rd is fine.
When in D2 green dot, if I take off really easy it will shift to 2nd ok then later to 3rd.
If i take off quicker in green dot it revs up high then either shifts to 3rd or if it shifts to 2nd, it doesn't feel right, it is mushy. I let up on the gas and it seems ok.
I can start in green dot and accelerate then manually shift to white dot and it goes into 2nd OK then shifts itself into 3rd.
My real issue is the automatic shift for 1-2 isn't right.
What can I check.
Oh, fluid is full and see through red, not burnt. It smells like normal good fluid.
Car has 95,000 miles, i don't have any history of the trans. The clean fluid tells me it at least had that changed before.
This is a new to me car and it shifted OK a couple days ago and now is acting up and getting worse.
I do manual shifting now so I don't cause any more damage.

Danford1

chromed302
2014-01-06, 01:48
Hey Paul, hopefully you can help me i have a 77 c4 case filled green stripe modulator and what its doing is... i can put it in park, neutral, reverse and drive and it does just fine but when i put it in drive its stuck in low gear(1st) and doesn't shift and it wont shift manually from 1st to 2nd to drive just stays in that low gear(1st) i been told to check governor and vacuum modulator and the psi on it i put a new modulator in it and i have it running to a vacuum tree on my intake and the valves in the governor move freely what else can i check out? Thanks!

danford1
2014-01-06, 08:35
I don't think anyone reads this forum anymore.
I asked the question above yours 2 months ago and never got an answer.
Yes, my trans still isn't fixed. I need to know what to check to fix it...
Perhaps try to find another trans forum and ask your questions there.
I hope you are able to find an answer.
Danford1

Craig Selvey
2014-01-06, 08:44
Paul is no longer is active on this forum as well

chromed302
2014-01-06, 17:30
well is there any trans forums that are good that could help me resolve my c4 issue that any of you may know of? Thanks

Rasit
2014-01-06, 18:51
Here's one...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/260730/

GreyGhost74
2014-05-19, 00:37
Got a c4 that 1st and second always engage, but 3rd and reverse wont until the transmission warms up. And it leaks a lot of fluid. First i thought it was the pan gasket. Replaced that. Now it looks like its leaking from above the pan drivers side rear corner of the transmission pan is where most of the fluid is...