Yep Paul, You are right. I stand corrected. It has been a few years since I was thinking about this last, but you have given my brain a smack back in the right direction. It is 1" down to help the camber curve and something like 1/8" or a 1/4" to the rear of the car to give it some more caster, right?
There are much better header options for the Cleveland because the exhaust doesn't have to compete with the towers! You can get BIG tubes for those. Upwards to 2.125" tubes. Most Windsor swap headers are 1.50"! 1.75" is the absolute biggest if you do the mods to use Hooker's Stang swap headers... In short, the Cleveland is 1" wider when you compare the two engines without exhaust bolted up. Once you bolt the headers up, the Cleveland is still the same width, while the Windsor grows substantially. Sure you know the Cleveland uses all the same mounts, trannys, accesories and such as well. So it is a viable swap and the aftermarket is coming back after a 20 year vacation. I personally believe the C is more expensive to build, however, the only way a W will run with a C is with, at least, high dollar heads. The C doesn't need aftermarket heads to run at that given level, so from that line of thought, a C is the same cost or less.
BTW... Don't even think about a 351m/400! They use totally unique engine mounts and 460 style tranny. In order to get one of those engines into a Mav, you would have to make all of the mods needed to use a 460! If I was to spend all that time and money modding my car, I would use the 460 myself. With a 351m/400, you have all the work, weight, and expense of the 460 but only get the cubes and power of a 347 or 351c/w. The Ms look like oversized Cs. Just like the W is a taller and wider 302, the M is a taller and wider C. They were used throughout the 70s in pickups and big cars. For the most part, that is why pickups didn't get Ws until the M was retired in 82.
Should be pretty easy. Pick one that is a greasy pig of a motor and you won't have to deal with rusty bolts. You'll need just hand tools, wrenches, sockets, screw drivers, crowbars. Should be mostly english, not metric bolts but to be safe bring both if you have them.
Clevelands It is interesting to hear that exhaust options are good for the Cleveland. The ports do point down rather than out, so I can see how this could work well. Clevelands are a bit tough to come by in wrecking yards anymore, but you might get lucky. I have been finding cars with FE motors(!!!!!) down here in Florida lately, so you just never know. Don't let a Cleveland with the smaller 2 barrel heads turn you off. They were quite good. I had one in a 71 Torino way back when.
So this 5.8 will bolt right up to my C4 trans, without me having to cut the drive shaft or re-position the motor mounts ?
What is the differnece between a windsor , cleveland or ( what is the m for)? I 've always wondered, not sure, (I've never heard of the "m" designation, i dont think.
A Windsor or Cleveland will bolt up in place of any 289-302. You can even use the flywheel, flexplate, balancer, pulleys, converter, clutch, starter, etc... between all three as long as it's 302 balance, as opposed to 5.0 balance.
The Windsor is basically a tall deck 302. The block is a little more than an inch taller. That is the simpliest definition. Since the block is taller, the heads sit higher and further apart, therefore it has a wider intake manifold. Okay, with that in mind... The M is a tall deck Cleveland. It is about an inch taller, therefore everything is bigger and wider just like the Windsor analogy. "M" has never really had a meaning assigned to it by Ford. Cleveland and Windsor, were assigned names taken from the place where they were made. M is said to stand for 'Modified'. 351 Modifieds are very big and heavy engines for the small cubes. Kind of a pure waste of effort considering you get the same cubes in smaller packages with the W and C. They made a version of the M that was 400 cubes, but being almost the size of a 460, that still wasn't enough to make it a popular engine. The difference between 302/351w family and the 351c/351m/400 family is mainly in the heads. The W heads are inline valves, much the same as the SBC. The C/M heads are canted with large ports and valves, much the same as the BBC. W type engines use a removeable aluminum timing cover. The C/M has the timing cover cast into the front of the block, alot like Olds engines. The fuel pump and thermostat all mount onto the cast iron cavity at the front of the block. The C intake does not flow any coolant or have a thermostat housing. http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/11/351M/
So a 351 inside of a Maverick is a real maintenance and installation headache as far as: Changing spark plugs. Strut tower clearance for headers. Hood scope requirement. Smaller brake booster required. (So headers or valve covers wont rub against the larger brake booster.) Is this right?
Yes, and no. If it is done correctly then you can minimize the headaches - like taking an aspirin "just in case". It is an exercise in patience, both installing it and working on it after installation.
This is the only problem with a 351c in a Mav without shaved towers: (a picture is worth 1000 words) Here is a C in my 75: Edit: The install was very easy. Same toploader/clutch/flywheel from the previous 302. Same engine mounts Same pulleys Original radiator and shroud Cs never had electronic ignition, so I swiped a Duraspark from a 351m and plugged it into my stock brain box... Only problem was the oil filter wouldn't fit... But the 302 that came out already had a remote filter, so I stuck it back on. Also used a deep sump Moroso pan without issue. The Moroso VCs looked way cool in there, but came VERY close to the master cylinder. Also, they would not come off the engine without raising it. AND you couldn't reach the spark plugs or wires with those on there. So, no matter how cool they look, the stock VCs are a much better choice!
To add a bit to what Ratio411 said, the W and C have the same transmission bolt pattern. The M has the 429/460 bolt pattern. The M has a 1.10" taller deck than the C which means it will be harder to fit in the Maverick engine bay. The 400M has the same bore and connecting rod as the 351M, just a longer stroke. It's a 'square' engine, 4 x 4, bore and stroke. The 400M will make very good power, and cheap. Use a dished piston and 351C closed chamber 4V heads, or use flat-tops with the 4V open chamber heads. Using hydraulic flat tappet cams it's pretty easy to get 450/450 out of them. However, since they use the same bolt pattern as the 460 most folks just go with the 460 for the extra cubes. IMO, the 400 makes a very good tow truck engine (with 4V heads). Very good torque, enough cubes to get the job done, small enough to not hurt gas mileage as much as the 460. YMMV
