I love Cleveland type heads, having owned two Cleveland powered Mustangs, a Cleveland powered Torino and Ranchero and one Boss 302. I tried every which way to Sunday to convince myself to build a Clevor for my Maverick. I ended up with a 306 with AFR heads. My biggest issue was the extra cost of the Clevor, the abundance of available good/great low cost Windsor heads, the extra weight of the Clevor and the restrictive headers that would be required to clear the shock towers when using a high flowing Cleveland type head (especially with a 9.2 deck or greater), to name a few. If I were going to build a race car, a serious race car, the Clevor would be my choice and there are a number of racers on this forum who could provide strong arguments against that. The Windsor heads have gotten that good.
Hmm http://www.trickflow.com/pressreleases/PowerPortCleveland/ Wondering wbat they'll flow, and how long till AFR jumps on the bandwagon
This is what they flow after TEA takes the 190's and CNC ports them and increases the intake volume to 225. Notice that the flow data is taken with a 4.125 bore, so I would expect the numbers to be less with a 4" bore. FLOW DATA 4.125" BORE Lift Intake Exhaust 0.100 68 55 0.200 146 115 0.300 223 162 0.400 282 204 0.500 313 231 0.600 336 240 0.700 339 244 Here are the flow figures for the stock 190's: lift intake exhaust .100 68 55 .200 140 111 .300 202 151 .400 248 187 .500 286 217 .600 299 232 I would be surprised if AFR comes out with a Cleveland head. They decided to focus on the 429/460 instead.
In regards to this particular combo of parts I will say this. Nostalgia.. fan-fare.. wow-factor.. factory port/valve locations along with bigger ports and "I want big CFM".. will almost always cost you AVERAGE POWER on the street. Bigger is not always better. Now, I have to admit that I really do love the Cleveland type stuff.. have worked more than a few sets of those heads from milder to wilder.. and realize the peak power than can be made when using them. BUT.. I would STILL rarely recommend any of the "economy C heads" for a milder street buildup. Just too many other Windsor options that are far less headache to install, cheaper to do, and have fatter power bands right where a street motor needs it most. OTOH.. make it a big bore motor(4.125"), and/or stroker crank with considerably higher SCR and much bigger cam?.. well, that's an entirely different ballgame altogether. Wakes a bigger ports velocity profile right the hell up. But then you'll have a snottier street/strip type setup(except strokers which effectively move peak power down lower in the rev range) with far more gear(less required with a stroker) and less civility(more gained back with a stroker) for daily driving duties. Always a balancing act and personal preferences and perspectives are hugely subjective. PS. the 351W block is about 3 inches wider than the 302.. and the 351C block is about 2 1/2" wider than the 302. To really ease this install and allow a better header design.. the shock towers would be best removed entirely.. not just shaved back.
Heres a good thread has part numbers on the needed headers and confirms the 67 stang headers too http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/008831.html
Hmm. Yeah, maybe I should just stick to the AFR thing for this particular project. I still want to build a Clevor, but maybe for a SN95 Mustang based race only project? If they can fit a Modular motor in there, a Clevor should fit without a problem.
You can fit a 460 in an SN 95 Mustang with swap headers. A Clevor would not present a problem. In regard to the Windsor heads, AFRs are just one of many good heads.
Just my .02 but if you're gonna build one, build it around a 4.125" bore 8.2" deck block and stuff it with a 3.4 crank, that'll really give the bow tie boys a surprise. I'm thinkin that adds up to around 360-370 cubes in an easier to fit package in a Mav.
I'm in lockstep with you. My favorite,("if you could build any engine", thread) is a 363 Clevor based on a large bore Boss 302 or dart block. I came soooooo close to building one, but my budget and access to used parts dictated I go with an AFR headed Windsor. It was way cheaper (I did go with the faux Cleveland valve covers). The want of a Clevor on my part is still more emotional than anything else. I grew up with Cleveland hot rods. I ended up with a Windsor, which tells you my head overcame my heart.
So the consensus seems to be "Clevors are effin' cool, but not as practical as a straight up Windsor." I'm okay with that. My focus this year will be on my 390 for my F100 anyway. The Maverick will have to suffer with a 302/C4 for a while longer, though I will be accumulating parts for the 351/T5 swap in the meantime. Anything I should look out for while I'm stockpiling? I already have a pedal set thanks to this very forum (you guys rock.)
Don't hate the foundation.. hate the guts. Like I said earlier.. the 351/400 block architecture itself is HIGHLY underrated. Think of it much more as a BIGBLOCK Cleveland motor because that's exactly what its 10.2" deck height does to the equation. From 9.2 to 10.2 is a huge jump in usable space. In fact, some old timers use to run these blocks.. they're still somewhat popular with the low-budget 4x4 torque mongers, with offset ground 400(4") stroker cranks and WELL over 500 ft/lbs at very low rpms. And touching 500 ft/lbs at only 3,200 - 3,500 rpm depending on the cam/head quality. Imagine that in a little light car like these with moderate stall and street gears. Even stock OEM parts are good for over 450 ft/lbs if you have them massaged and get the compression up to work with the right cam. If space wasn't at such a high premium in these little cars?.. I would build one with this block, a 4.250 stroker crank, and toss some Kasse P38's or CHI heads on top for 7,000 rpm big-block style fun. Olerodder often talked about these underestimated blocks too and we all know he's been around the block a few times to know what's up.
You can have the shock towers cut & notched back about 2in easily,everything else stays stock.That is what has been done to my car & bb466s car.Run a windsor,any size you want,& as long as you don`t run anything like TFS highports use stock location exhaust ports that come on any of the good aftermarket heads.Then w/ mild modifications you can use Hooker 6208s that make great power & not have to buy the more expensive Tubular Auto headers.You can get a set of non i`ve seen ceramic coated ones for about $500.I`ve seen bb466s car run many times & he is in the peocess of changing the mtr now.But his previous combo w/ those headers,408,edelbrock hds.700 lift roller,850 carb & vic jr,c4 w/ 5000 stall,422 gears,10 &1/2 in slicks 28 in tall w/ full interior & roll bars has gone 9.80s @ 135mph in the qtr.This eng had no power adders(11 to 1 comp ratio)& lasted 3 yrs.I think right now this is one of the best combos you can run,PERIOD,& you can put a whole lot of cars on the trailer at the trk if you can drive it.
