Given these parts, what would you do?

Discussion in 'Technical' started by dtb147, Nov 25, 2014.

  1. dtb147

    dtb147 Member

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    Currently I have a 1971 Maverick with a stock 302/C4 and almost to 75k miles. The car runs when it feels like it. I think the number 1 cylinder has a misfire. I have some parts from a 302 build that stalled out. I am left with the decision of what to keep and what to replace. I'm going for a somewhat budget build that makes the best use of what I've got. I'm flexible though and open to other options if they make sense.

    What I've got to work with:
    • Stock 302
      • Misfire on 1 or 2 cylinders
      • Stock 2-barrel carb
      • Stock exhaust manifolds
    • 5.0 roller
      • From a '93 Thunderbird
      • Block was hot-tanked and bored .030"
      • New cam bearings
      • Stock cam/lifters (not currently installed)
      • Stock rods
    • GT40 heads
      • From a 96 Explorer
      • 3-angle valve job
      • Stock springs
      • No rocker arms/push-rods
    • Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
    • Used headers that supposedly came off a Maverick

    I have a couple options the way I see it. Need a new 4-barrel carb, pushrods, rocker arms to use the GT40 heads and Edelbrock intake.

    1. Put the heads and intake on the existing engine and leave the stock bottom end. Possibly new rings for the pistons.
    2. Build the roller block with new pistons/rings using the crank from the old engine and whichever stock rods are best.
    3. Build the new block with new crank/rods/pistons/rings.
    Any thoughts would be appreciated. I've done engine work before, but always stock repairs and not upgrades.

    Dave
     
  2. dan gregory

    dan gregory Member

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    Hi Dave,unless you are planning on making big HP,use the 90s blk & the crank that came w/ it because it has a 1 piece rear seal.Then use the rods out of your 71 blk & put ARP bolts in them & have them reconditioned,they are stronger than the newer rods.Just get a set of Hypertech pistons & some moly rings w/ a new oil pump & clevite 77 main & rod bearings & you will have a bottom end that will last a very long time that will take a lot of abuse.Fix the GT40s as they are good hds,put on that intake w/ about a 600 cfm carb,a small hydraulic cam,electronic ignition & a new water pump & go have some fun.
     
  3. 71gold

    71gold Frank Cooper Supporting Member

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    "I'm going for a somewhat budget build"...


    tune up the 302...build the 5.0 as time and money permit...:yup:
     
  4. rotorr22

    rotorr22 Member

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    Dan and 71 both make good points.

    Sounds like the roller engine is a good foundation for a gutsy street engine. If $$$ is the issue right now (when isn't it?), I would tune up the old 302 and get the roller motor ready to swap out at a later date. To me, 75K miles is nothing on a 302 unless the oil and air filters were never changed. It should serve you in the interim with a good tune up and possible carb rebuild. Don't expect power, cause it won't be there. It will get you down the road to enjoy your car with a good tune, however.

    Your roller engine is a great foundation for a street motor and it will have considerably more snot than the 2V 302. Even with a stock Mustang GT roller cam.
     
  5. Krazy Comet

    Krazy Comet Tom

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    For a budget build, I'd consider using the GT40 heads on current engine, BUT the short block needs to be sound and that's apparently a unknown... If you went that route be sure compression is good on all cylinders, has good oil pressure and plan on resealing it, meaning replace all gaskets and rear main seal, there's a 99.999% chance it's leaking(yes the one piece seal in newer block is far better but the two piece worked for 20 years before being discontinued)... Throw a mild cam(205-215*@.050 & .450-470 lift), lifters and timing chain in it, plus new oil pump... Along with the heads & other necessary components will produce probably 100Hp over what you have stock(and why the orig must be sound)...

    If there are any maybes on the orig short block, as already suggested go with your crank and rods in the newer block along with new pistons... BTW you'll need a steel gear dist when using the roller camshaft...
     
  6. baddad457

    baddad457 Member

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    X 2 on this, but I'd go with the 93 T-Bird roller cam, this should be the GT40 grind, which is very close to the HO and F4TE roller cams in specs and will work great with a carb. I'd also invest in a set of full roller 1.7 rockers to compliment that cam and boost the valve lifts by another .030"
     
  7. dtb147

    dtb147 Member

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    Thanks for all the input so far. This is some good info. I suppose the first thing I need to do is a compression check on the original engine. I suspect the #1 misfire is head gasket related. My assumption was that I'd be pulling the heads no matter what I do which is why I figured I might as well use the GT40s I have.

    It occurs to me that "budget" means different things to different people. I'm never going to put some monster engine in this car. It's mostly going to be for the street. I may go to the track once or twice, but not regularly. I'm looking for 250-280 RWHP. I think mostly what I mean by "budget" is that I'd like to use the GT40 heads, stock crank, and rods if I can and get whatever HP I can with those. There are some parts I'll have to buy, and that's not a big deal. That said, if there are better options like selling the GT40 heads and buying something better, or a stroker kit, I'm open to that. I just assumed that would be pricey, not just for the heads but for bottom end upgrades that would need to be done as well. Spending $1000-$1500 would be ok. If I spend $2k or $3k, the wife might get annoyed. :tsk:

    Something that I forgot to mention in the original post is the state of the crank from the '93 block. When the engine was torn down, it was in good overall shape, but there was scoring in two of the main bearings. The crank mains were turned I'm told, though the guy couldn't remember how much. In addition, it was stored standing on end which as I understand is proper. It was not secured though and fell over at some point. That is obviously bad, but I don't know how bad. I moved to the Baltimore, MD area a couple years ago and haven't located a good machine shop here yet that can check it out for me. For now I've kind of ruled out using it, but I'd like to hear thoughts on that.

    If I use the 71 crank/rods in the 93 block, can I still use the 1-piece seal, or is the end of the crank itself different? Additionally, I'll need to use the flexplate and balancer from whatever crank I use due to the 50oz. vs 28oz. Are there any concerns about the torque converter? I assume the flexplates have the same bolt pattern, but I haven't compared them as the '71 is still installed in the car.

    I have a set of brackets off an early 90s Mustang that I'd like to use, but not the balancer. I think the Thunderbird balancer I have will have the wrong belt offset for those accessory brackets though from what I've read. I like the idea of using the serpentine setup as opposed to the v-belts. I suppose I can buy an aftermarket balancer pretty reasonably.

    Another one of the main stumbling points for me on using the '93 block is choosing pistons. There are just sooooo many options. I can be indecisive to say the least. And though I feel I am pretty smart and capable, I have a really hard time making that kind of decision without input from someone more experienced.

    I also know I need a new oil pan and probably a pickup as the oil pan on the '71 is dented. I figured a new oil pump would be a good investment as suggested. I also have previously installed new OEM Duraspark II box, distributor, and coil as well as the 130Amp 3G alternator.
     
  8. dtb147

    dtb147 Member

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    Also, I took the week off next week for hunting season, but the trip is canceled. I figured that would be a great chance to spend some time in the garage, even if it is a little chilly. It might be too late to order anything major and get it in time, but at the very least it gave me some motivation to find some direction and get started.
     
  9. Krazy Comet

    Krazy Comet Tom

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    Cranks work with either seal, it's block that is cast differently...

    All AOD behind 5.0 use a 164 tooth 50oz flex plate that is too large for a case fill C4, those use a 157 tooth... A aftermarket 157 tooth is avail with 50 oz balance but if you use you orig crank it won't be necessary...

    If your engine has a burned valve(very possible if heads are orig), the compression will be low... Probably 99% of the time a bad head gasket will result in coolant loss...

    Here some specs on harmonic balancers you may find useful...

    http://www.professional-products.com/secure/uploads/file/Damper Spacers.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  10. 71gold

    71gold Frank Cooper Supporting Member

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    "It occurs to me that "budget" means different things to different people."

    maybe...mild build...would be a better description of what you are trying to accomplish...:huh:

    "a stroker kit"...would entail the purchase of...intake, cam, heads, ignition, carb, headers, radiator upgrade, lifters, roller rockers, transmission upgrades, rear gear change, extra machine work, etc, etc.
     
  11. baddad457

    baddad457 Member

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    Take a close look at the 93 crank. If there's no obvious signs of damage, it's more'n likely fine. These cranks are tough pieces. The casting quality of the later 50 oz cranks is superb. The early 50 oz cranks (81-84) are the only ones to worry about. The 2 piece seal crank has a flange in it forward of the rear seal that could present a problem in a roller block. Just setting it in place will tell you if it is. As for pistons, pick a flat top with 4 valve reliefs with a pin height of 1.619 to get you as close to a zero deck as possible. This is about the maximum height you'll find in a 302 piston. This is also the stock O.E piston for that motor.
     
  12. dtb147

    dtb147 Member

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    Mild build is probably the best way to describe it 71. The stroker kit is the type of rabbit hole I want to avoid.

    So with the input I have so far, I'm leaning towards the following. Links to parts on Summit Racing. If anyone has suggestions for better parts sources, that would be appreciated.
    • '93 block
    • '93 crank
      • Pending examination.
      • Need to determine what size main bearings to get. Don't have the right tool to measure myself.
      • Need to verify rod bearings are stock size.
    • '71 rods
    • New pistons
      • Material?
      • I had these bookmarked (UEM-KB116KTM-030) since the Gt40s have a larger chamber.
    • New oil pump (mel-m68)
    • New oil pickup (mel-68-s)
    • New oil pump shaft (mel-is-68)
    • New oil pan (SUM-G3534)
    • '93 Camshaft
    • '93 Hydraulic roller lifters (should these be swapped?)
    • New pushrods (Stock length or measured?)
    • '96 Explorer GT40 heads
      • New 1.7 full roller rocker arms (Not sure what to get with OEM style mounting)
      • Stock springs (Should these be upgraded?)
      • EGR Plugs (F4ZZ-6E086-A ?)
    • Edelbrock Performer RPM intake (Already own: EDL-7121)
    • Edelbrock Performer 600CFM carb (edl-1406)
    • New distributor gear (Possibly swap from the '93 distributor?)
    • Full rebuild gasket set
    • Other new fasteners?
    • New timing chain/gears (clo-c3057k)
    • New water pump (SUM-313014)
     
  13. bmcdaniel

    bmcdaniel Senile Member

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    Last replacement crankshaft kit I bought I paid something like $180 (shipped to my door) for a crank turned .010/.010 and included main and rod bearings, and even Plastigage LOL. That can be cheaper than having the existing crank cleaned, magnafluxed, turned and buying new bearings separately. For not much more than you pay to have stock rods reconditioned and ARP bolts installed you can buy a set of Scat I-beams that are better and stronger. I would recommend a Ford Racing or ARP oil pump drive shaft, much heavier duty.
     
  14. dtb147

    dtb147 Member

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    This is where I start to get sucked in. If I use the '93 block I have to buy pistons. If the cost difference between reconditioning rods and new rods isn't that much, then I might as well get new ones. If I don't trust the crank and it's not much more, then just get a new one. Now I'm back to a full rotating assembly. If I am doing that, I might as well get a good one. If I'm getting a good one, I might as well up the displacement. :whistle:

    It's hard to know where to stop. What are the thoughts of doing a solid stroker bottom using the top end stuff I have, then upgrading the top end in a year or two when more funds are available? I guess you really have to know the heads to pick the pistons.

    Maybe a tune-up and carb rebuild on the original engine is best for now. I just hate to see this stuff collecting dust on a shelf.

    BTW, bmcdaniel. I just noticed your location. I grew up just north of the city there in Dover. :)
     
  15. bmcdaniel

    bmcdaniel Senile Member

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    I'm actually in Weiglestown now, just outside of Dover and have a Dover address.

    The last 347 stroker I did cost almost $800 in machine work to have the block gone over and the rotating assembly balanced. There's more to doing a stroker than just buying the parts.

    If the '93 block needs new pistons you'll have to have the crank balanced or at least checked unless you use stock pistons and rods (which I just happen to have a set of stock standard size forged pistons still on the rods from an '89 block I took apart). If the block needs bored you're in the same boat, new pistons and balancing. Isn't this hobby fun?
     

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