Borgeson steering upgrade in process!

Discussion in 'Technical' started by mojo, May 7, 2015.

  1. Krazy Comet

    Krazy Comet Tom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    7,561
    Likes Received:
    2,319
    Trophy Points:
    531
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chesapeake VA
    Vehicle:
    1972 Comet GT clone 306 . 1969 Fairlane Cobra 428CJ 1988 T-Bird awaiting 331 ..
    LOL... After a bit of searching some of the boxes are Delphi remanufactured units... Dependent on application, some are older GM Saginaw 600, while others like '71-'73 Mustang are new 680 models, seen model 700 mentioned for non Ford applications as well... What I didn't see is the origination of the universal box that's used on early Mustangs, intermediates and Maverick... From appearance is probably the '71-'73 Mustang box...
     
  2. lastchance

    lastchance Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Hingham , Massachusetts
    Vehicle:
    1973 Grabber 302 c4 Needs a complete restoration.
    I have an Isuzu Trooper ps box in my Grabber. I believe it is what Borgeson is using by machining the sector shaft for the Maverick pitman arm and adapting a new mounting plate. I redrilled my frame and had a certified welder splice the Maverick and Isuzu pitman arm for my installation. Works good for me.
     
  3. mojo

    mojo "Everett"- Senior Citizen Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,250
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    73 Comet GT-302 4bl
    I think someone posted something on this subject before, regarding the fact the Borg box was possibly a Isuzu unit? I recall someone mentioning it -- not to many people have commented on using anything other than the Borg. box who've stuck w/ this type of steering setup. What pump are you using?
    Glad u decided to share this modification -- lot less costly than the alternative. Do you, have any pic's of your project -- wud be interested in seeing them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  4. lastchance

    lastchance Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Hingham , Massachusetts
    Vehicle:
    1973 Grabber 302 c4 Needs a complete restoration.
    I am running an 86 Mustang 5.0 HO .I used the stock Mustang pump.
     
  5. Hottrod1991

    Hottrod1991 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    747
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    PGH,PA
    Vehicle:
    73 maverick
    Yeah this box is an isuzu unit 14:1 ratio
     
  6. markso125

    markso125 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    117
    Location:
    Lewiston Ut
    Vehicle:
    1972 maverick 2 door LDO
    The box that is currently in my car is a 16:1 ratio. The first box they sent me was the Saginaw/Delphi 700 that used the 14:1 ratio I had to make a three point turn just to pull into a parking spot with that box in the car. When they sent me out the new unit it was a little smaller, still a Delphi box but it made the car drive a whole lot better then the first one.
     
  7. GrabberGT

    GrabberGT Chris

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Fort Worth Texas
    Vehicle:
    72 Grabber 302
    Odd. The ratio shouldnt have anything to do with your turning radius.
     
    Rasit likes this.
  8. markso125

    markso125 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    117
    Location:
    Lewiston Ut
    Vehicle:
    1972 maverick 2 door LDO
    there was a lot of things wrong with the first box they sent me, basically they had welded the wrong mounting plate on a gearbox setup for a car with a different steering setup then our cars use.
     
  9. mojo

    mojo "Everett"- Senior Citizen Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,250
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    73 Comet GT-302 4bl
    There seems to be some confusion on whether these boxes are 14:1 or 16:1! I believe I read somewhere in Borg's literature they were 14:1, I have to check. I believe they are 16: to 1 in my case; I don't see any difference in reaction time of the conversion. However, I do see, what I perceive, as a shorter turning radius.
    2.) I am wondering since there is speculation on these boxes (or similar boxes) used in production Isuzu's, did Isuzu contract Saginaw for some of their vehicles?
     
  10. markso125

    markso125 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    117
    Location:
    Lewiston Ut
    Vehicle:
    1972 maverick 2 door LDO
    this is the box you should have in your car, it is what I currently am using at it is the one borgeson has listed on their website for our cars
    http://borgeson.com/imageCD/800114DIM
     
  11. mojo

    mojo "Everett"- Senior Citizen Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,250
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    73 Comet GT-302 4bl
    That is the one on my car!
    After going thru the Borg catalog I have discovered the only option for Ford boxes are 16: to 1; I did not discover anything about the origin of the box, so assume it may be from Isuzu.
    The GM/Cheby guys have the options of the Delphi 600 & 700 new and reman's 12:7 to 1 or 14: to 1 depending on the year of the car (pg# 12 -14 of 2014 catalog).
    Mopar 1962-79 (Delphi 600) have the option of 14: to 1 ratio.
     
  12. mojo

    mojo "Everett"- Senior Citizen Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,250
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    73 Comet GT-302 4bl
    FINNALLY ---got this project sorted out. Cost me more in time and money than expected, but, got the car's steering and suspension work harmoniously. Glad I got it workin B4 we get this 90+ temps. I had to get more caster to get to the point of not having to fight, keeping it in a straight line. Could not see myself going on several hour drives fighting the car all the way -- not going to happen.
    My final solution for additional caster was SPC 92410 UCA's (now @ 4 deg caster ) w/ another deg available. While I was in the process, had all that stuff loose, swapped out the spring saddles w/ rollers. I had LCA's, tie rods sitting in my garage for 4 yrs, had those installed by my old school shop as time was pressing to get all done by time of Lima Gathering. Plus, I had about run out of gas wrestling w/ springs in the heat & humidity. Also, did scrape/cleanup and applied fresh undercoat to fender well area.

    Drove the car on the highway today, at highway speed 70 -- had not driven that fast in year & half -- car was too unstable.
    I am satisfied w/ the way it works now -- complete confidence to drive anywhere.
    This setup w/ the GM style pump takes more effort/force to get the same results as OE setup. I can't say how brisk windy road conditions will affect the car compared to OE pwr setup. I am sure I will find out soon -- plan on rolling now.

    PS: For those who contemplate this modification; you will have to get more caster by adding shims to UCA's or changing to different control arms. About all you can get moving the strut rods is around 2 deg. In my experience, that is not enough to return steer wheel to center on turns and driving at speed is "white knuckle affair". That is my experience!
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
    mavgrab302 and Krazy Comet like this.
  13. mojo

    mojo "Everett"- Senior Citizen Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,250
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    73 Comet GT-302 4bl
    Update on Borgeson PS conversion. I thought I had the caster issue solved w/ the SPC control arms - not so. The arms made a knocking\banging noise on the right/pass side I could not figure out. The noise drove me up the wall!

    They provided the caster I needed but, cud not feel safe w/ the noise - knew it shud not be there. Took them off - sold them. Went back to stock type arms and 2- 1/4in. shims on front bolt of UCA's; that provided abt 2 degrees ea. arm. Should have went this way from the start, caused me a lot of extra work, time and money. Lord knows, removing springs is not something I look forward too.
    I had the car aligned for the 3rd. time and the spec's are, Caster -3.6 right - 3.8 left; Camber 0.2 r - 0.3 left; Toe 0.15 each.
    Bought new front tires 205 * 70 -14 car rides better and tracking better than any time in the 2+ years I been working w/ this setup. I still believe it cud use another degree or so of caster wud improve from where it is now.
    I don't see how anyone w/ this setup can have favorable w/o going at least 3 deg. or better. If you can - Please let me know how!
    I still have not had much road time on the car. I did do abt 400 mile trip to James Dean the last week of Sept.
    The car drove well on some roads but squirrely on others. On the 200 mile trip home on mostly US30 highway from Muncie IN. car drove very well.
    I decided to buy new tires last week cuz the ones on the car had rounded over on the edges and cud contribute to this issue. While the tires were being installed the installer brought to my attention the tie rod adjuster nuts were not tight against the billet steel adjuster. Going to take it back to the mechanic, inform him of the oversight and have them go over the alignment to make sure everything is where it was or suppose to be. Had car on Interstate 57 yesterday and no problems 70mph. One more show 30 of this month, weather permitting will put abt 100miles, should get good idea where I stand now.
     
  14. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    4,166
    Likes Received:
    535
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Vehicle:
    1971 Comet GT
    Glad everything's coming together, Everett. Did you adjust the strut rods amap to achieve max castor before rubbing the fenders?

    PS, and although I bet you're getting pretty damned fast at removing springs and UCA's.. I wouldn't dare tell you to offset the shafts in each arm towards the rear of the car to gain another partial % point of caster. :ignore:
     
  15. mojo

    mojo "Everett"- Senior Citizen Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,250
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Garage:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    73 Comet GT-302 4bl
    Well, I am not looking fwd to removing any of the aforementioned parts anytime soon. Time to ride and enjoy after 2+ years of back & fwd headaches. I think if I had shorter spring height's, getting the springs back in wud be much easier.
    The springs I removed from the car were almost new, they had been cut, rode like a hvy duty solid axle truck; I replaced them w/ present one's -- car rides like I want now. As the car is just a cruiser, only plan is to ride and enjoy -- no drag strips, road courses or the like -- ride and hangout w/ gearheads.
    If for any reason I have to remove shafts, I will take your suggestion on shaft adjustment.
    As far as, strut rods, they are out pretty far; not enough to have tire rub w/ the 205's. In the future, may go to aftermarket strut rods -- for the present -- keep the car of jack stands and on the road.
     

Share This Page