5.0 Oiling System

Discussion in 'Technical' started by DragPack428, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. DragPack428

    DragPack428 Member

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    I installed a 1994 Ford crate engine in my Comet last fall. I bought this engine new in 1994 and ran for a number of years in my 1966 Mustang then ran the snot out of it for years in my 1987 track car. It had been sitting since about 2005 and I added aluminum heads with 1.72 ratio roller rockers and windage tray and 8 quart pan prior to installing in the Comet. I preset the hydraulic lifters after turning the oil pump for about 2 minutes with a drill by rotating the engine to that cylinder's firing position then installing and tightening the rocker arm nut 3/4 of a turn past where the push rod stopped shaking with my fingers. When I first drove it, it sounded like I missed the setting on a few valves as there was some slight tapping but I figured I'd put a couple of hundred miles on it to settle in then adjust them. So I went to adjust them Thursday because I was planning on driving it out to Carlisle. I found all the passenger side rockers tight and all the driver's side rockers loose. Tightened the driver's side about a half a turn and after cranking the engine they were all loose again. Repeated a couple of times until the lifters bottomed out so the engine wouldn't run. Backed off to get it to run again then trailered the car out to Carlisle. Now that I'm home I've come to the conclusion that the engine is not feeding enough oil to the driver's side lifter galley. Went to look up how the oil system flows in the PDF shop manual I purchased last fall and it won't load, says there is a licensing issue UGH. Looked at my 66 Mustang hard copy manual and it had great diagrams for the 6 cyl but nothing for the small block V-8. Searched the web and didn't find anything helpful.

    Any ideas where to look? Anyone have an oil flow diagram they could send me.

    Keith Herman
    71 Comet GT
    5.0 Crate Engine
    5 Speed
    3:80 Detroit Locker
     
  2. Krazy Comet

    Krazy Comet Tom

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    About any Motors Manual will show oiling system... BUT if oil is making it up the pushrods to rockers, you have plenty of flow...
     
  3. bmcdaniel

    bmcdaniel Senile Member

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    What cam?
     
  4. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Doesnt sound like an oiling supply issue to me at all. The reason i say this is because that methos mentioned above is an incorrect valve lash/preload adjustment procedure. Google "EO/IC valve lash adjustment procedure" to find the correct way to do it and be assured that the adjustments are being done when the lifter is on the base of each lobe.

    And IMO 3/4 turn of preload is too much plunger collapse even for a stock cam.. and far too much for a light performance cam with milder springs. 1/4 - 1/3 turn should equate to about .020 - .030 plunger compression and absorb cam/lifter wear for a good while before needing to be readjusted.
     
  5. bmcdaniel

    bmcdaniel Senile Member

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    Good catch. I read 3/4 turn but was thinking 3/8 turn, that's where I set mine. Also they used to recommend NOT pre-filling the lifters with oil before adjusting preload as it can bend/distort the pushrods.
     
  6. DragPack428

    DragPack428 Member

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    Cam is either "B" of "F" hydraulic roller, whatever came with crate engine in 1994.

    Valve setting procedure is right out of Ford manual section 8-12 for "Non-Pedestal Mount" rocker arms (set at each cylinder's TDC & 3/4 turn preload). Interesting article at http://www.centuryperformance.com/valve-adjustment-procedure.html but it does not seem to be the issue here as the passenger's side is good. I could see you could get an exhaust valve too tight on extreme cam overlaps setting them on TDC but both the "B" & "F" cam exhaust valve events start to happen 30 degrees past TDC or greater.

    This looks to be an oiling system problem as all driver's side lifters are not getting sufficient oil. Have 50# at idle hot & 60# driving on 10W - 30 oil. Did find a crude picture on the web which shows that driver's side lifter galley is last place to get oil and gets feed thru an inverted "V" shaped passage that looks like it has a core plug in the block under the rear of the intake manifold. May have to pull the intake and investigate.

    Could have been like this from new as my previous use was with open exhaust and thick aluminum valve covers so I would not have heard the slight tapping noise it makes. It was pedestal rocker arms when new so I never even looked at them. Just hammered the snot out of it.

    Keith Herman
    71 Comet GT
     
  7. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Keith, was only trying to help you get sorted out by inferring that what was once considered to be SOP is now considered to add variable when building a high performance engine. All the prominant engine builders I know and talk to use the EO/IC method because it works on every cam design small to large and eliminates variables when it comes to equalizing lash adjustments. Although you are right that there are many ways to skin the same cat here the EO/IC method compensates for the newer designs faster lobe ramp rates and also the 4° advance being ground into cams these days.. plus also ends up being more precise for those who run even more additional valve timing advance.

    As for the lifter preload amount you need to remember a couple of things to apply here. First is the fact that the rocker arm has a built in multiplication factor based on its ratio and that needs to be considered into the final preload depth achieved at the lifters plunger. Although the multiplication factor is lower on that side it is still relevant to at least some degree and it can be easily measured with a dial indicator. Assuming(been a while since I measured but IIRC) the 20 TPI fine thread portion of the stud equates to about .060" for one full turn(or about .015" per 1/4 turn). So, 3/4 turn would roughly be about .045" thou and then you'd need to factor in the rocker arms fulcrum length and its overall effect on the arc and how it translates to actual lifter plunger compression. With a 1.72 ratio rocker I would quickly assume the shorter side of the rocker lever added .015 - .020"(about .4 lift multiplication factor) to that .045" of thread movement for roughly .060" or slightly more of plunger compression. While that amount of preload is perfectly fine for a a non-performance OEM style lifter with upwards of +.100" of plunger movement.. some/most performance lifters have less plunger travel than lo-po versions and there is usually a sweet spot for best metering based on their internal disc type and metering design. Valve train weight, rpm, higher rocker ratios(faster valve action created by higher ratios increases spring rate rise and makes it tougher for the spring to keep the lifter on the cams nose), and spring rates will also affect this sweet spot as well.

    The other thing to consider is that the hydro flat tappet design does not inherently lend itself to higher rpm operation. And the roller designs are even heavier and harder to control than the older flat tappets. There are or course newer much superior short travel higher rpm metering designs that can extend the rpm range but that's not what we're talking about here so I will toss this in just as an additional friendly FYI. IF.. you ever float the valves on this motor by exceeding the lifters metering capability(VERY easy to do without a rev limiter) and/or the springs ability to control the valve(MUCH more likely to occur when pairing higher than stock rocker ratios with older springs).. the amount of plunger preload equals the total amount of valve seat standoff and then some. The bigger issue to consider here is not just the amount of standoff that occurs from lifter pump up.. but the additional amount that can be added due to valve tossing/lofting and extra length of time for which it can occur that ends up causing kissed pistons. For this very reason it is usually advisable to run LESS preload depth to allow the lifters metering to keep up and add greater margins of error for when the springs cannot do their job. Regardless of original lifter design.. I usually run 1/8 - 1/4 turn of preload on ALL hydro cams.. flat tappet and rollers. Often times they will make more noise with less preload.. need to be readjusted just a bit sooner(every year or two).. but they almost always run better on the top end of the rev range and will ALWAYS add more safety margin.
     
  8. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Oh.. almost forgot. After all that off tangent stuff.. the answer to your actual and original question is that the oiling on all SBF is priority main. This is often misunderstood as the aftermarket will lead you to believe otherwise as they lump all engine designs together(such as the SBC which is not priority main) and imply that they(SBF) are not in the attempt to advertise their way into your wallet. SBF are extremely effective at maintaining bearing life but some guys are increasing the main passage sizes to 1/2" to add greater margin. I just resized mine a few weeks back and installing screw in plugs is also important insurance to add on any performance type build.

    Main bearing oil supply passages runs from the oil filter up to the 7/16" diameter main passage located on the passenger side of the cam tunnel.. then from there the lifters are fed off the rear of that main bearing supply passage up to the passenger side lifter galley.. then continues up to a crossover passage under that pressed in cup-plug on the rear china wall to feed over to the drivers side lifter galley. If that plug was inadvertently pressed on too deeply?.. it could cause a driver side lifter bank starvation type scenario that you speak of. Otherwise it would take some larger amounts of debri or larger lodged items in that rear crossover passage to cause the lack of oil supply issue. Even then though.. the pressure would likely still be high enough at idle to keep the lifters from ticking excessively.. but then end up starving once the oil flow requirement increases at higher rpm's.
     
  9. DragPack428

    DragPack428 Member

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    I agree with everything you said. I like "Idiot Proof" procedures like the EO / IC valve lash setting procedure because it takes the unknown factors out of the equation. If I decide to reset all the valves I would follow that procedure and reduce the preload to 1/4 turn. Thank you for the tips.

    During my years of flogging this engine in my track car (pedestal rocker arms and GT-40 iron heads) I found it would float the valves / lifters about 6,500 RPM so I ended up putting a 6K chip in the MSD. I could never get more than about 8 races out of professionally built 306 CID engines built to the SCCA rule book (about 375 HP) and ended up with this engine (Ford rated @ 285 HP) probably running 25 or more races without ever missing a beat. The new aluminum heads have dual springs. I've wound it up to 6K to date and it didn't float the valves / lifters. Don't really need to flog it as it is just a street car.

    Thanks for confirming my interpretation of the oil flow. I could be stuck on stupid but I'm convinced that since all the passenger's side are good and all the driver's side are loose it has to have something to do with the oil flow. I'm thinking on cutting some windows in a surplus stock valve cover and see if I can confirm my suspicion on the oil flow. The only thing I'm worried about is if the rocker arms will hit on the inside of stock valve covers. I have a few to choose from, the original 94 black covers, some 90 HO aluminum covers, and some 66 covers.

    Keith Herman
    71 Comet GT
     
  10. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    In that scenario I'd have to guess it could only come down to that rear passages crossover plug being driven down too deeply(causing that passage feeding the drivers side galley to become severely restricted).. or something is physically blocking that crossover passage leading over towards the drivers side galley. The passages are heavily angled at about 60° or more so it seems doubtful they could become sludged up at all. And IF that plug was leaking under the manifold and trailing back into the lifter valley?.. you would surely have oil pressure fluctuations(especially after warmup with the lighter oil weight you're running). Same goes for the drivers side front lifter galley plug located under the timing chain cover.. leaks located there that were severe enough to cause lifter ticking would surely show up on the gauge too.

    PS. if you are not losing the preload depths on that side of the engine?.. meaning.. not changing from what you set them at?.. then I would say you may have found the old used rollers metering limitations with those double springs combined with higher ratio rockers. Maybe they were marginal after all the prior hard usage and you just pushed them too hard with the rocker change. Not just the lift that goes up with the higher rocker ratio.. but the valve's open/close speed gets more aggressive and pushes the metering even harder than before. If you want to upgrade them?.. move to a set of Comp Cams reduced travel design. About 1/8 turn or around .015 preload is all that's needed and you will gain more rev range.
     
  11. DragPack428

    DragPack428 Member

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    It didn't appear that the preset changed. They are 7/16" screw in studs with set screws. The driver's side screw down easy (after loosening the set screw) and you can wiggle the rocker until the lifters bottom out (about an additional 1 1/2 turns over the original 3/4 turn) and start to move the valve. Since the passenger's side wouldn't wiggle at all, I left them alone.

    If I find the root cause I'll post it here. Just had cataract surgery on the right eye yesterday and the left eye is scheduled in a couple of week. Doc says no lifting over 10# or bending over fenders so I won't get to work on much until July. I'd turn the radio up louder but I went without one. It gets pretty quiet when I put it in 5th gear though. Probably drive it local to a few cruises without flogging it excessively until then.

    Keith Herman
    71 Comet GT
     
  12. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    That's not really a good sign if all the lifter plungers on that side are easily compressed by simply hand tightening the poly locks. Could indicate that you may have been right about them not being fully filled with oil. Might be due to supply issue or maybe even severe oil aeration issue. Aside from putting a gauge on the front drivers side lifter galley plug opening(assuming they are already converted to screw in plugs) not really sure how else you'd check localized pressure in that area. Maybe you can see the lifters on that side collapsing while turning the motor over with the manifold off? And if so, maybe even swap them to the other side to see if the quit collapsing? That would be a good measurable hydraulic pressure test using the lifters themselves.

    And not to think the worst here.. but it is also possible to crack these blocks leading up from the main webs to include the lifter galleys. Usually takes some bad harmonics(late model 50 oz imbalances sure don't help much either) along with a piss poor balance job and too much rpm and power to do that type of damage. I could only imagine that would also show up on a gauge as well.

    Not sure how valuable this engine is to you.. but if it's worth anything at all I'd recommend parking it till you get it figured and sorted out. Otherwise you might end up trashing otherwise useful parts that could be reused. Hope your recovery is quick and troublefree.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016

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