Paul S, I am not disputting what you have said but I know exactly how much HP my 64 Comet made, the car weighed 2850lbs and the fasted I ran was 11.9 something. That motor made 401HP at the crank(on the dyno) and I'm guessing about 330HP at the tires.........................so making 350HP (at the crank) wouldn't be all that difficult since Shelby made 305HP with the 271HiPro. I guess 350HP from a moderate 302 is within reason.............but the heads are still the stumbling block unless you go with 351w heads and special pistons. As for making 500HP from a mostly stock 351w..............I'm not so sure. If you are making 365HP at the crank with stock iron heads my guess is that with the same motor and just going with AFR/TFS heads you could make and extra 50+HP easy. Getting from 365 to 500 is 135HP difference and I doubt you could get there with the stock heads or even with highly modified stock heads because I'm not sure you can get much over 1.98 intakes in the head without spending some very serious money. To put it in perspective, my 408ci motor puts out very close to 620HP at the tires to haul my overweight Maverick to 9.80's (my Maverick weighs 3125lbs wet), which means it must be pumping out around 730HP at the crank. The motor I have is nothing special except it has a set of Roush/Yates Cup heads (which I will find out more about when I pull the motor this winter to freshen it up before next season, and a CHP short block) along with a super secret Crower cam with 704/708lift on some wierd centerline. I leave the line at 5000RPM and shift at 6500RPM but am pretty sure I could go past 7500RPM...............just not sure how much I would gain.................and I'm not out to break any records..........just have some fun!!!!!!! So, maybe you can achieve 500HP at the crank with a highly modified stock type motor, but I would love to see the dyno sheet on your 365HP motor and see where it makes peak HP and at what RPM it makes peak torque.............................IMHO
Olerodder, I think I have a graph from the Torino stuff that the engine was dyno'd for but I will have to find it. The engine has been refreshed and installed in my Mustang now. It will come back out when I get the exhaust finished and break-in is done so I can dyno it again. Do you want me to email it to you or post it here? Paul
Tim, if you are followiing class rules and can only use factory iron heads then you can only go so far. To be right to the point, FORD HEADS SUCKS! But now lets be real, Ford didn't make a production motor to go fast, they build one like everyone else, to sell and have as little problems as possible. If I was to do this all over again I would do the 347 and Victor SR or better heads. You can pour in all the fuel and nitrous you want but the bottle neck is getting it out, plain and simple. In 1974 I saw two signs in a store called "Speed and Sport" and they read. "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?" "If it won't flow, you won't go!" True then and still very true today! As always just my .02 Bossmav
PaulS, The engine dyno sheet looks really terrific! The comment you made about making HP with stock parts is right, you can.......................up to a point. If you took a set of aftermarket heads and put them on the 365HP motor my guess is that you would see an instant gain in the to around 410/420HP and this could never be achieved with the stock cast iron heads no mater how much work you did to them. So, if you take the 365HP as a baseline and add good heads, intakecarb, cam, headers I could see you hitting the 500HP. To go one step further, if you stoked this 365 motor to 408/427 my guess is that you would be much closer to the 400HP level, then adding the aftermarket heads etc., you would be over the 500HP level and heading for 600HP. The old adage we used to use back in the day is still true today........."More Cubic Inches Make More Torque and More Torque Equates to More HP". My 3cents worth.................................IMHO
olerodder, If I went with aftermarket heads I would need a different cam, intake, exhaust, and carb. I would also have to run the engine above the desired 5500. The heads I have modified for 5500, the cam I selected for 5500, the intake was chosen for 5500, the carb was selected for 5500 and the exhaust is tuned for the engine through 5500. The reason it all works so well is that it is all tuned to operate in the range that I wanted to run it. Just swapping the heads would do very little to make more power. The mistake that lots of folks make is thinking that changing one component will make power... It just doesn't do much unless you match the rest of the equipment to the component that you change. My target was 350 HP and I made that and a little more. Where it really paid off was the torque curve. It comes on strong really low and then stays high long enough to make the power. I was real happy with it in the Torino so I think I will like it in the Muskrat even more.
PaulS, You are correct with everything you mentioned and I agree 110%. I have been drag racing for the past 30+ years and back then most of us couldn't afford to put the motor on a dyno (the few that were around) so we tried a lot of different things and sometimes they worked and sometimes they didn't. I have raced a lot of factory SS hot rods including a 427 Ford and 428 Cobra Jet Mustang and back then you were really hamb strung because you had to use the factory parts, you had to inovative and resourceful..............................and come up with ways of making more HP without turning to the Summitt or Jegs catalog. My goal throughout my life in drag racing has been to make as much HP as I possibly could and anyway I could (naturally aspirated that is).................sometimes I went against the "rule book" and colored outside the lines.......................My lifelong hero was "Smokey Yunick" because he always thought outside the box and colored outside the lines. I have seen a lot of people recently try and squeeze the last ounce of HP from basically stock motors, like 395HP/460ft.lb. from a basically stock 460, and 410HP from a totally stock (new style Hemi) 5.7 Dodge "Hemi", and 450HP from a pretty stock LS2 SB. I certainly applaud those people for their efforts. My only point..................and I won't post on this thread again............is that I doubt you can make 500HP with your 365HP motor using stock Ford heads. IMHO
Well, thanks for your input. You could be right on the 500 hp with windsor heads but it would still be fun to see someone attempt it. Smokey was a Chevy guy but I like his philosophy on making power. Ak Miller was my personal hero - he did more for Ford performance than anyone I know of. It has been great discussing this topic with you.
Internet just got turned back on today. Thanks for all the replies. To clarify a few things; "class rules"- I'm not going to be competing in any class racing(just brackets) so I don't have to worry about being competetive against other "stock" cars. Also, I realize that Ford heads do suck, but good heads will suck too through exhaust manifolds. As far as throwing money away, I don't see it that way because I'll be using stuff that's already lying around vs. buying intakes, heads, headers and such. I'm pretty sure that a fresh stock '70 351W in the Comet with a stall and 3.55s is an easy 9-oh 1/8 mile car. More compression, roller cam and tuning can surely cut it down to the low 8s. We tuned my old '75 down from 9.25 to 9.05 just trying different plugs, timing and carbs. Head porting knocked it down to a best of 8.85..on 14" radials. I believe too many people start throwing parts at a car to go faster before they've optimized what power they already have. Lots can be done with relatively stock motors (to a point), you just have to make everything work together.
a stock 70 model 351w should go mid 8's in a comet. It seems like with a cam headers stall good ignition and so on they are good for 7.40's-7.90's. I would build a gt40 headed 302 if I wanted the stock appearence
Bringing back an old thread..I'm still thinking about this build. As far as looking stock, unless you're a sharp eyed Ford guy (or a sharp eyed Maverick guy) the difference between a 302 and 351w in a Maverick is barely noticeable. Especially to a non Ford guy. I'm going to set a goal of 8-ohs in the 1/8 and 12.99 in the 1/4....before spray (if I spray it, don't know yet) Don't know if it's possible, but going to try.
So...............are you going to notch the towers???? One thing to keep in mind.................the motor is an "air pump", the more air you get in................the more air need to get out.
No, that would be a dead giveaway. And yes I know it's just an air pump. I may not reach my goals, but I'm a believer in tuning and all the little stuff that adds up that alot of people overlook. Making the car work, shaving some weight(where it's not noticable)good stall and gears- all that stuff adds up. All in a car that looks and sounds like a saturday night cruise in resto driver.
