What headers fit an RHS, or any other heads, raised exhaust port location?

Discussion in 'Technical' started by groberts101, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Hi guys. I've read somewhere that a few members here have run the RHS heads and have had issues with fitment. So, after coming up dead in my search around here I'm hoping those with some firsthand "hammer and weld" experience using these specific castings or even any other raised exhaust port SBF heads on 8.2 deck height blocks will chime in here. The ports and fastener locations are very close to .350" raised from OEM stock spec's.

    I did notice that ESampson has/does use these same heads but couldn't access his imageshack album from some old links he posted on a spark plug thread around here. Pictures would be pretty awesome to see and save much texting and reading on your ends too. :sleep:

    What specific headers did you use?

    What specific header mod's and their exact locations?

    Shock tower mods?

    Other fitment issues?.. starter, oil pan, shock tower, slave cylinder.. pitman arm.. etc.

    Normally I wouldn't care and just chop and weld my way towards horsepower paradise.. but I'm going to be using these heads as an interim buildup on top of my old factory filled short-block and already have what look to be Hooker 6901's(or whatever the Hooker part # typically thrown around here) that I need to use to avoid custom headers. At least until I can get back over to my Kasse P-38 high-port conversion later on next winter after work slows back down again and I actually have a bigger "dusty stash" of higher dollar parts saved back up to continue on with. Just too damned expensive and time consuming to do all in one shot.. don't know what the hell I was thinking.. I'm not even close to being rich and this stuff usually takes me years to accomplish on the limited allowance my wife gives me. :naughty:

    Main motivation is probably like some of you too.. my boys are bugging me more and more to quit screwing around with all the full-on racing parts so we can more quickly get it together this year for the car Craft Summer Nationals in July 17 - 19. Plus, I figure they're growing up so fast(13 and 15) that they won't even get to enjoy it as much by the time I finally get through with all my crazy idea's and rubber meets the road. They've also heard me talk about "massive snow-tire burnouts" so many times through the years that they want us to enter the Comet into the burnout contest. Not sure if we'll have time and cash needed to swap to a trac-loc setup and get rid of the lazy 2.79's for full effect.. but I surely know that even one snow tire can make one hell of a cloud all by its lonesome if you spin it fast enough. Let's see.. 3rd gear x 2.79 gear ratio x 7,200 rpm?.. = "hey, where'd he go?.. we can't see him any more!" lol Fairly mild street build by my standard.. up around 400 horses/decent street torque with smaller cam/big dual plane/small tube headers.

    Oh crap. :slap: Almost forgot to mention the most major concerns I have with header fitment here. My "already raised .350" ports will be modified and lifted even further(another .100" thou or so.. to .450" total) and the header will also need to ride up a bit higher with slotted holes on the flanges to allow proper port matching. But wait.. that's not all.. just to seemingly make things even more unnecessarily difficult for myself and so I can start to lose my hair even faster.. and make matters even worse at the shock towers.. I want to lower the engine into the cradle a bit deeper than the factory location. At least a full inch drop would be nice to find and I would also consider moving it back towards the firewall while I'm making custom fitted parts. This of course counter-offsets all of the raised ports geometry changes in final tube height.. but causes them to be even nearer the shock tower. But.. if that's pushing too hard and too fast and causes too many additional issues.. the stock mounts can be used for now if need be.

    So, nutshell time finally. The headers will sit approximately 1 1/4" wider at the flange because of the additional raised port height.. and also down into the narrower section of the shock towers by about 1/2" or maybe slightly more. Is that even possible to do with a hacked up set of off-shelf headers and uncut towers?

    Any constructive input, pictures, or thread links would be great.. thanks ahead. :tiphat:
     
  2. rotorr22

    rotorr22 Member

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    Good luck finding an off the shelf header that will fit. The 6901 Hookers have one of the larger exhaust port flanges and they have slight interference here and there with my AFR's. Unfortunately, most, if not all Maverick headers were designed in the days of iron factory heads, not high port aftermarket aluminum heads. Any modern day headers would likely be designed for fox body Mustangs.

    Those P38 heads are really interesting. I got to look at a set at Ron Robart's shop and they are impressive. Kaase knows Clevelands as good as anyone, yet he created a hybrid Windsor given the opportunity.
     
  3. Craig Selvey

    Craig Selvey Indiana State Rep - MCCI

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    I have Racing Head Service Pro Action 180 cc Cast Iron Heads with Doug Thorley Shorty Headers. Does that help?
     
  4. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Thanks for the reply guys.

    Yeah Craig, I did see the mention of RHS heads on your motor when I searched.. but initially thought that maybe your shorty Thorley's wouldn;t have much relevance here. But then later today it hit me. The only really important measurement that I need is the distance between the shock towers closest point when measured to the exhaust ports actual bolt location. Obviously the header tube will probably be in the way and make for tight measuring tape contortions.. but as close to the bolts insertion point would be great to know before I really get carried away grinding on these things.

    Only reason I even posted this question is that I tend to get WAAYYY too carried away once I start and just don't want to make things so bad to reach a point where I may as well just plan on custom built headers once I chop these Hookers all to hell. Haha.. sounds like a b-rated horror flick! Not that I couldn't do that.. the headers.. not the hookers.. just that it's only temporary stuff and time is fairly limited as I get busier at work. Basically, I'd much rather have the heads closer to fully optimized the first and only time my grinder touches them knowing that whoever buys the motor later will likely not be as concerned with header fitment as we are with these narrower cars. They'll be made aware of the design.. slot there header flanges to slide them up to match the top of the port.. done deal. Scatterbrained right now and short on time..hopefully that makes sense.

    Pictures would be nice but I won't try to bother anyone who doesn't already have them on their hard drive. Is it possible to measure the closest point between the tower and header bolt insertion point to give me a hard number here?

    I can eventually mock my stuff up and know for sure.. but with my hoist holding a motor and trans right now(damned Chevies!).. another engine on my stand.. finding everything needed and all the rest made me want to at least try and leverage the few guys who might know just how bad fitment really was or if the Hookers will even fit at all. Even if I use my AL block to do a mockup in my empty chassis.. I'm just feeling too damned lazy and old right now to be hand hoisting blocks into engine bays for mockup purposes only. I'll likely just mockup on the stand and transfer the measurements between the shock towers for some more immediate numbers. I did however PM just about anyone and everyone who ever posted anything about RHS heads.. well besides you Craig.. and hopefully we'll see if ESampson has long tubes on his setup. If he does by chance have the Hookers squeezed in there?.. then I know I can also pound, squish, cut and weld mine in without too much major issue. The headers are old.. don't care if I ruin them.

    Here's a very quick 1 hour or so "what if".. Kasse P-38 hi-port design mockup. NO metal needed up to this stage and an Edelbrock 351 Cleveland air-gap manifold could easily be milled to fit this iteration. Because the Cleveland has a dry manifold(which is good for power) you still need a water crossover for the 302 heads.. but they are available and easy to make too. While the trick flow 11R head is very good.. IMHO, this particular casting is THE most underutilized SBF head that accepts regular roller raockers(no shafts required). Could easily surpass 400 CFM if needed and can end up below 7 and 9 degree valve angles with a moderate rolling over(angle mill). Whether you even like Fords or not.. Kasse's just a badass.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. MikeG747

    MikeG747 Member

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    Greg I have RHS 180cc heads on my old race motor. When that motor was in the car I was running the AJE K-member. So yes the shock towers were modified. Currently I am running much larger Victor Srs. and custom made headers. I have no shock towers now as I have converted to M-II suspension. Hope that helps. See this thread for pics:
    http://mmb.maverick.to/threads/progress-pics.101362/

    :tiphat:
     
  6. Craig Selvey

    Craig Selvey Indiana State Rep - MCCI

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    I am somewhat unclear exactly what measurement you want. I can tell you they fit very well and are not even close to the shock towers. The only problems I had was the spark plugs. On the one side, the header had to be modified quite a bit to clear the spark plugs. I was thinking I wrote a thread on the subject.
     
  7. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Thanks for the reply guys.

    Mike.. kinda what I figured with your higher powered combo's. Thanks for the input.

    Craig.. thanks for the follow up as well. I didn't realize that the Thorley's afforded you so much room with tubing distance from the shock towers. Do they have fairly quick and/or abrupt bends right off the header flange/head port? Better yet.. do you have a build thread around here with pic's?

    The number I was really looking for was the closest pinch point between the shock tower and over to the nearest header bolt which would be located directly across from that same point. Kind of like sliding a level in there on a horizontal plane to better connect the dots between that nearest contact point of the tower over to the nearest header bolt directly across from that same point. Sigh, I'm tired.. tough to describe in words right now but hopefully you get the point.. or to make things even easier, have a picture link to look at.

    Another way that might help clarify my number requirement. The number I want is the distance between the actual header bolt location on the head itself.. or maybe to the outside of the header flanges thickness and I can just add that thickness to the final number.. over to the nearest point of contact with the shock tower. That way I can just measure my header tubes distance coming off my head to the outside edge of the tube as it turns down to compare with your numbers and see if there's sufficient room between these particular headers and my shock towers.

    Thanks again.

    EDIT. Just saw a few pic's of these headers in another stock exhaust port location and I see a potential issue here. Is it true that the 6901's rear tube is going to be very close the the steering gear box?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  8. ESampson

    ESampson Member

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    Hi, i got your message...busy few days for me here...i'll try and get you some pics tomorrow night when im at the shop, i am running hedman shorty's 88300? maybe they fit amazing in between the shock towers. but what i did when i purchased them i cut the #5 & 6 cyl tubes off (all others were fine) and ordered some header tubing a built a couple tubes myself so they fit just fine now, only issue is that they are only 1 1/2" tubes. but they are fine for now as im going blow-through turbo for next season and have to make a custom forward facing set anyways.
     
  9. Craig Selvey

    Craig Selvey Indiana State Rep - MCCI

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  10. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Thanks much again here guys. I know everyone's getting busier now with all the nicer weather rolling in and really appreciate the help here.

    Ok.. on the hedmans. I quick searched images and it looks like the 88300's are long tubes nearly identical to the hooker 6901's I have(1-5/8" x 3"). Which in my longer term experience, makes perfect sense with these "one size fits all" designs since apparently many copy and use similar jigs to make these cookie cutter: Mustang, Cougar, Fairlane, Maverick, and nearly any other model Ford made within similar year ranges and engine combo's. Not to say they all fit the same because the radii and turn transitions can obviously vary somewhat.. especially in these narrower cars as has been proven by all the dents needed in some particular parts combos.. just that I've seen and held many side by side to know that often not much changes except for price and overall quality.

    Now.. I assume the question mark being inserted after the model number you mentioned above("hedman shorty's 88300?") was just a quick "off memory" guess and the 88400's look to actually be the short tube version with the slightly smaller size tube/collector size you mention. This sound about right to you?

    How far away are those smaller tubes from your towers? At least an inch or better? Or even tighter in some spots?

    And Craig. Looking at your pictures makes me already start to feel claustrophobic! Or maybe better to say.. headerphobic. lol Do you have any pics saved or posted around here of an engine bay(topside down angle) into the drivers side shock tower?

    If I owned your car?.. I'd have hard drives full with screen savers and calendars full of photos by now! Just figured I'd ask.. but if not, no biggie.. I'll get it all figured and sorted out soon enough.

    Since this combo of parts is so rare in comparison to others.. I'm thinkin' I'll to have to wing it here and port the schnitzel out of these heads. Then just cross this bridge when I actually get there. Don't really want to deal with full custom headers when my completion deadline gets closer(plus almost all my shelf stock of small tube mandrel bends are 1.75" stainless and seems overkill in several ways for an interim build/mule motor setup like this one will be). Also still have to allow extra time to work out the bugs and fully tune the thing too. But who knows?.. maybe if end up going that full custom route someone here will want a set for their car and I can at least recoup some cost later on when I get back to my dream build with the other AL block and Kasse heads.

    I will quickly add this though.. these RHS heads are VERY VERY nicely designed(out of box valve-job and some machine work consistency(especially guide to stem sizing) is near utter and total crap though.. should most definitely be checked before final bolt on) mainly due to having tons of extra potential already poured and shaped into the castings. The first exhaust port I chopped into last night shaped up really nicely and more importantly to me.. really quickly(less than 20 minutes from the time the compressor fired up). 400 horses using only a healthy mid-range style cam with 1.7 rockers will be pretty easy to do. Finally getting excited to get this thing rolling so we.. and others.. can enjoy this old car again. The red and white color combo will really pop.

    Thanks again guys. :cheers2:
     
  11. ESampson

    ESampson Member

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    Yes it was the hedman 88400 I was just trying to remember it offhand, just on break rght now at work so I figured is drop in and see how your battle was going... Hookers didn't fit my car at all let alone te head issue.. If my car was like many I would have got the 6901s and then cut those up because te Hedmans will just choke your engine. They do have a lot of clearance at the shock tower though which is nice and they drop in the car in just a few minutes. Like I said I'll get some pics tonight... Goodluck with the battle till then!
     
  12. murphy88

    murphy88 Member

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    I ordered a set of hedman 88300..for my 347..it has dart jr steel heads...will they fit the ports good...any spark plug issues???thanks
     
  13. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    Thanks for the follow up. I had a couple hours today and felt more motivated to go dig my parts out of the shed to have a closer look see. Kind of weird how all those "header fitment" memories came flooding back just as soon as I looked closer and measured the port openings of these headers. Oddly enough, even though most all SBF heads(OEM or aftermarket) have square style exhaust ports.. for some reason these cookie cutter designs decided to use taller and narrower oval style openings?

    Now I can clearly see, and rotorr22 already mentioned this possible misalignment in regards to his AFR's, that the flanges openings are about .100" thou too narrow for my heads exhaust port width.. and the top and bottom of the ports waayyy overshoot the port opening and gasket area on the top and bottom(easily a half inch or more total/top and bottom). I might have to chop and/or weld and/or grind these things up after all. On the plus side.. I have enough extra room on the roof of this header that I could actually notch it and just slide it down to ease the mismatch at the top of the port and flange/tube.. but then I get back into the whole.. "towers get narrower the lower the motor and headers sit down into the cradle". Not to mention that I don;t know what other fitment issues that may cause as well.

    I'm also thinking on just shrinking my exhaust port exit size(most exhaust ports are already too large anyways.. especially on these little stock stroke motors) to fit the ID of a 1.5" tube and making a custom flange with very short stubs welded onto it. Then I can just cut this headers flange and poorly matched openings off to merge back onto the new flange and smaller primary stubs. Or.. just hack away at my towers in temporary fashion to ease some of these pains.
     
  14. groberts101

    groberts101 Member

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    I'm assuming that you must mean.. "World Products Windsor JR's"? Reason I ask is because Dart doesn't make any "JR" heads.

    As for fitment.. they look identical to my Hooker 6901 port openings and are likely just as rough and inconsistent in sizing from port to port. My little sister can weld better than the guys who worked on these things. lol Just get the grinder out to gasket match the header flange/tube openings and there should be no issues at all since the gasket is usually slightly larger than the actual port opening. You can have a smaller exhaust port going into a larger flange opening/header tube.. just not the other way around or you'll lose flow and cause extra turbulence from the shearing effect caused from that abrupt lip poking up into the flow path.
     
  15. rotorr22

    rotorr22 Member

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    I've seen two brand new sets of 6901's side by side. The quality is non existent. The ports look like they were cut out by a drunk with a plasma cutter. It should come to no surprise that some people report a lack of clearance here and there, while others say they fit well. When compared to my AFR exhaust ports, the header ports are taller than my exhaust ports, but narrower. As was suggested, some time with a die grinder will fix them, but it is just another task I wish I didn't have to do.
     
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