105 Octane for $1.77 a gallon - E85

Anybody here consider an engine and car build to run the E85 fuel that is popping up all over the country? They opened up an E85 station a couple months ago that's not too far away from me. Today I was over that way and the pricing and fuel selections really got me thinking. In our area today, 87 octane gasoline is selling for $2.69, and 92 octain gasoline is $2.97. At the E85 station, they were selling 89 octane 10% ethanol for $2.62, 91 octane 20% ethanol for $2.57, and 105 octane 85% ethanol at $1.77 a gallon. If you have a flex fuel vehicle, the E85 sure looks good right now considering gasoline prices. But you can't put that stuff into a regular older car or truck without possible problems with the alcohol attacking fuel lines rubber components. From what I've read at the E85 website, newer cars with computers are the biggest problem, as the high oxygen content of the E85 will fool the computer and cause it to screw up engine settings. A flex vehicles computer will know what the E85 is and program the engine for it correctly. Our older cars without computers would be easy to tune for E85, I would think. Has anyone here considered what it would take to set up a performance Maverick able to use E85 and take advantage of the 105 octane rating?

Now if you look into it, the EPA and feds have rules about changing cars over to run on alternative fuels. Has to do with the BS of emissions and that you might make a gasoline car run "dirtier" by converting it to alternative fuels. So for the sake of this discussion, lets say it is for off road racing use only.

What do you think we would need, to run ethanol at 85% ?? Basic fuel components are now available, like teflon coated fuel lines and gas tank coatings, that will be compatable with the corrosive ethanol. Also a carburator would need to be built and jetted properly. Synthetic oils are also recommended for the crankcase. What else?

Race cars have run on alcohol for decades, so the power is there in the fuel, and the 105 octane would allow high compression engines again, without the need for expensive racing gasoline.

I'm really thinking with the right engine build, an E85 proof fuel system, and the proper tuning - a person could have a kick'n hot car and get 105 octane fuel at a stable price of under $2.00 a gallon.

Here is a link to the E85 page
http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

Eric J

 

Definately heading your way soon, as it is a "growing" trend out of the mid-west corn and grain belt. For example, Illinios has 66 stations now.

I'll probably lose the Georgia crowd on this one, as they lack the stations yet too.

But what needs to be done to build a Maverick aged car engine to run on this and take advantage of the high octane?

 

All cars new and old can take up to 10% ethanol without a problem. Many newer cars can also use up to 20% without changes. The problem is that ethanol by nature is corrosive and after extended usage at higher concentrations (above 20%), it will eat into the fuel lines, gas tank metal, plastics, and rubber parts of the fuel system. FFV's are made with teflon coated fuel system parts and more stainless steel parts to prevent damage.

That is why I'm at the perfect point in my restoration, because I can replace all my fuel system parts with ethanol friendly parts. Teflon coated or stainless fuel line, coated gas tank, ethanol friendly carburetor, ect..

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Sam is right on track. They just are completing a big new ethanol plant near here to, and there has been a smaller one operating for a few years now. Consumer demand for cheap fuel will prevail. And the big automakers are building more FFV's every year. For 2006, Ford is releasing a 3 valve 5.4L engine for use in pickups and SUV's that is FFV.

When the whole alternative fuels thing started getting attention. Several mom and pop companies popped up that were doing conversions to LP, natural gas, and ethanol. The feds shut them down, saying that conversions would cause higher emissions in older cars and needed to be stopped. It killed all the little guys and the feds left it up to the big 3 to make FFV's for us to buy.

Eric J

 

OK - I've been looking at some alcohol conversion web sites. Here is one that is a little dated, but has useful info on what needs to be done to the carb. keep in mind, that this is for 100% alcohol use, and the figures would need to be adjusted for 15% gasoline in the mix.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_drane.html#ch4

Interesting points are that the alcohol fuel air ratio needs to be richer and jetting would have to be increased by about 30% for the E85 fuel. FFV's do this with sensors that tell the computer what fuel is coming down the line and the engine adjusts the fuel injectors as needed. This would be a problem for us as old engine conversions have to be set up for either gasoline or E85 and that would mean no switching back and forth without swapping carbs or changing jets. Not a problem if you only drive in an area where E85 is available, but a problem if you want to drive across country. Also, on a carburetor, float settings need to be changed between fuels.

Ford does claim an increase of 5% HP with their FFV's running on E85. Common sense would say a loss of mileage with a 30% richer mixture though. But at $1.77 a gallon ............. ...... still makes you think, what if

 

I've been trying to find something that supports Max's octane questioning, and so far I've not been able to find anything that disputes the 105 octane rating of E85. But I did find some truely fascinating info on why lead (TEL) was used to boost octain in the first place. It is from "The Truth About Gasoline" by Omega Motors. Really a fascinating read.

http://www.omegamotors.com/enjoy/gasoline/gasoline_01.html

Here is the excerpt I wanted to point out about why we had lead based gasoline instead of ethanol based gasoline.

[font=Arial, Helvetica]

Gasoline became the world’s premier automotive fuel in the early 20th century, but it took some time for engineers to understand its properties, one of which is now known as "octane." An octane rating describes a particular gasoline mixture’s ability to withstand premature combustion, which causes "knock" in engines. By 1920, the automobile industry knew that higher octane was necessary to stop knock and to enable the use of more efficient and powerful high-compression engines. Yet America’s leading oil companies persisted in selling low-octane blends.

Breakthroughs in refining were numerous with the advent of World War I, as scientists steadily devised new technologies for rearranging the molecules found in petroleum to provide higher-octane gasoline. However, oil companies resisted many of these advancements because they required investment. This created the demand for a "magic bullet" product that could be added to cheaply refined gasoline in order to increase octane more simply and inexpensively than might otherwise be the case. Enter lead.

The research laboratories at General Motors — headed by the famous inventor Charles Kettering, father of the electric cash register and the automobile electric starter — conducted octane experiments for years before pinpointing lead. For instance, GM was quite enamored of ethanol, or grain alcohol, as an octane-boosting gasoline additive. In October 1921, Kettering’s assistant, Thomas A. Midgley Jr., presented an important paper before the Society of Automotive Engineers touting ethanol’s benefits and discounting its weaknesses. More important, ethanol could not be patented, which seemed to limit the interest of GM and its leading shareholder, DuPont.

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Just two months later, Midgley reported to Kettering that tetraethyl lead (TEL) also stopped knock in a test engine. As an odorless chemical, lead didn’t smell vile, unlike some of the previous antiknock substances they had discovered. The magic bullet had been found.

By 1923, GM would set up the Ethyl Gasoline Corp., a joint venture with Standard Oil of New Jersey (today ExxonMobil), to sell TEL manufactured by DuPont. Though they called it "Ethyl fluid," their product was lead in a liquid suspension that could be added directly to gasoline by refiners. GM wouldn’t mention ethanol in a positive light for another half-century, and with good reason. By the late 1930s, Ethyl was placed in 90 percent of U.S. gasoline.

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]By offering a percentage of local TEL profits to major oil companies overseas, Ethyl soon made deep inroads into European markets,[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]where ethanol had previously enjoyed popularity. With patents for Ethyl fluid and the related manufacturing processes between them, GM, Ethyl, Standard and DuPont earned a royalty on practically every gallon of gasoline sold throughout the world.[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica]Like they always say - follow the money! [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Go to that web link above - it is a really good read.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Eric J
[/font]

 

OK - here is what I came up with through several hours of reading on conversion to E85. Unfortunately, there is no way to take an older car and set it up to run great on both E85 and pump gasoline. It has to be one or the other. Modern FFV's can run both because the sensors and computers can compensate for the changes. It would be possible to switch back and forth in a couple hours. But not what would be needed for a cross country trip running both fuels like the FFV can.

Here is what I came up with:

Carburator - Holley has a 4150HP 750cfm set up for alcohol. On the cheap side a gasoline carb can be converted with about a 30% increase in jet size. Also the float needs to be adjusted or weighted (alcohol is denser than gasoline by 8%)

Fuel pump - install an alcohol approved electric fuel pump.

Fuel lines and tank - need to be alcohol approved. Can use stainless or teflon coated. On the cheap side JC Whitney makes a fuel tank liner coating that is approved with alcohol.

Higher heat themostat - E85 likes a hot intake and engine.

Advance the timing 4-6 more degrees - E85 burns slower so you need to light it faster in the cycle.

Hotter spark plug - go up 2 heat ranges

Set choke to stay on longer - long warm ups

Run a synthetic oil in the crankcase

Top Oil in a tank full to lube upper cylinder and fuel system - (I didn't read this one - just thought it would be a good idea)

So you can see, it would not be all that hard or costly to convert an older engine to run on E85. And everything would be reversible if you wanted to go back again. As far as mileage and horsepower, with a proper set up it would not be a problem. Ford on their FFV's claim a 5% increase in HP and all manufacturers claim a mileage increase. Engine just needs to be tuned properly to take advantage of the way ethanol burns. I can see how in an engine set up for gasoline, that ethanol would not be efficient. But with the right set up..........

Eric J