You can use a high volume pump with a deep pan on a Cleveland but don't ever use a high pressure pump on a Cleveland......period. Too much pressure causes the oil to blow right by the mains.
i was talkin about Windsor's... but i didnt know that , hmmm guess its true that you learn somethin new everyday
Took me a while to find some of my research on the oil line reroute. This is only part of my decision on no external line for me. The link is a lengthy article and you will form your own opinion. I have seen guys run both systems and both work an both have failed. Biggest reason I will not run the line, I don't spin over 7,000 rpm, I want to know if I have oil pressure at the end of the system, not from the oil pump. Other engines with same design run without the line and have no problems. My engines- my way, (always open to changes though) Your engine-up to you! Remember, opinions are like butts, everybody got 1 and they all stink, cept for mine!! http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1033066052/ Here's the infamous Cleveland oiling system. Despite all the bull**** from the ragazines it's a perfectly ordinary V8 oiling system - same as the 460, same as Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Cadillac V8s, and same as Chevrolet's 2.8 and 4.3 V6s. Installing oil restrictor plugs. The right one goes to the cam bearing, the left to the left (driver's side) lifter gallery. The cam bearings are usually restricted to .062-.068", the lefter gallery to .090-.125", depending on who makes the plugs. Cleveland Blocks
dkstuck, great info, thanks! I just dropped my (to be stroked)C block off this week to be sonic checked and the oil restrictor kit to be put in, decided against external oiling system, I feel better about my decision after reading through those posts.
I have run high volume pumps on every engine I have built (personal engines) and I have never had a problem. I use either a scraper or windage tray on all my engines. The pump is against the relief from idle all the way to red line. If you are running Ford recommended clearances and a high volume pump your oil pressure (once warm) will not change from the time you start your engine to the time you shut it off. If your clearances are too big then you are going to have pressure lower at an idle than when it is at 3000 rpm. The only oil that has to drain back through the engin is the oil that goes to the rockers - that oil should be limited. The crank should get most of the oil, the cam second and the rockers third. The path of least resistance without restrictors in your block (and Ford spec clearances) is straight to the lifters and up to the rockers. Pressure is fed to the lifter galley, crank, and cam. from the lifter it goes directly topside to the rockers. If you are sucking your pan dry then you are pushing all your oil to the rockers - if you run restrictors you won't have that problem. If you run a scraper or windage tray the oil won't spin up on your rotating assembly. It all goes back to the pan and the oil pump. The same thing will happen with any pump - it is not the fault of the pump it is poor engine design and poor planning on the part of the builder.
This is a VERY good discussion. While the 'con' side does put up a good arguement, the 'pro' side does too. I don't think this link would lead someone to change their opinion of an external line though. Pro or con, you can see both sides, so one will tend to stick with the opinion they had when starting the read. I am pro, so I see alot of flawed thinking in the con camp. If I was con, I would pick up some of the flawed thinking of the pro camp and hang my hat. Truth is both camps posted some statements that made good sense and both sides posted seriously flawed statements. Very good read though! Dave
One guy says that his previous engines with oil mods all blew up (doesn't say why), and that his last engine, without mods, didn't blow up. Pretty sweeping and general statement. My first thought is "well sure, you have had plenty of practice, about time you built a good one". It didn't help that when he was asked if the oil system destroyed the previous, or it was just ancetdotal, and that shut him right up. Another thing: The guy claiming that splitting the oil flow, then putting it back together in a pressurized passage would arerate the oil. False. It can't arerate in a pressurized passage. The hose arguement is next... The claim was that putting a hose y on a faucet and running two hoses to another y at the end would result in the end y putting out the same pressure and volume as though you just had a single hose with no Ys connected. This is false because one hose would be full of holes (oil leaks at bearings), so you do equalize the pressure with 2. Then the guy that claims that an external line takes exactly half of your oil flow and wastes it by running it back to the rear half of the oil galleys, causing the front to starve... Well, the output at the front of the engine is smaller than the oil galleys in the engine, so half the oil cannot possibly run out there. If anything, you are making better use of your oil pump because the flow that would otherwise bypass into the pan is now used to fill that line and equalize flow to the rear mains and RH lifter galley. Those are things I zoned in on. Dave
Okay, they are similar to other engines feeding the top first... However, how many other engines, like the SBF, use priority mains. They feed the crank first... I don't see too many Caddy V8 top oilers running with SBC, BBC, FE, and W engines at the track. Of course the oil system is not the only reason, but I am sure if it was better, you would see more. SB Mopars also use a top oil system. That crowd also tinkers with oil lines and lifter sleeves. Too me it is a testament to how very good an engine the Cleveland is. They dominated during their time and beyond, they are known as having the most hp/cube potential power of any engine, and the only thing we have to argue over is thin cylinder walls (which everyone agrees) and an argueably substandard oil system...
ratio411, I do agree with you on forming your own thoughts! Everbody has to make a choice an don't let "that guy" do your desicion making. You always have many opinions and, who is right? You have to decide and live with your choice. As I said, I know guys with both systems (external line and no line) Most people on both sides of the fence do some oil mods, restrictors, cam bearing spin, bush lifters, and whatever. Both have worked an both have failures! There is many more tech's on this matter, but this one here covers most and does give both sides. My way works for me, (other than the bs of cam wiping out till they figured the oil zinc problem out,sucks) I dont spin a cleveland more than 7,000 ever, more like 62-6,400 at the most. I like your way of thinking an open mindness, ratio411, We think a like,( I think ) just you got a line an I don't. Neither one of us will go to hell for our way of thinking and we both can enjoy a drink together!
