mavman congrats!!!i'm interested in trying a flying toilet. is this what you run on your mav?any tips or thoughts will help. thanx!!!
Before mavman gets home from work and gives more info, I also run one on my 331. Was so impressed with his, that I found a deal on mine and snatched it up. The principal of the thing is simple enough but getting it lined out is a bit frustrating if you are used to carbs. Rich and lean are just opposite on them. You put in a bigger jet(pill) to lean it out, and a smaller jet to richen it up. The fuel comes in through a barrel valve which has a tapered slot in it. The fuel by-passes thru the "pill" and what doesn't is metered into the throttle body and nozzles in the intake. I was ready to go back to a carb before mavman and James Monroe of Ron's, steered me on the right combo to use. Had .032 nozzle jets in mine and was too big for my engine, dropped one little size to .031 and the right pill, and have not touched it since. Try it, you will be impressed for a lot of reasons. Mavman can tell you more.
Yes, that is what I use. I bought it used on Ebay. Tips...yeah, I have a few. First and MOST IMPORTANTLY, forget everything you ever learned about a carburetor. Mechanical injection is soooo simple that if you get to thinking along the lines of how a carb would react to a change that you'll confuse yourself. Trust me! Dad can tell you the same. Second, you'll be switching to alcohol if you're not already running it through your carb. Yes, you "can" use a toilet with gas, but it's not really designed for it. It was designed to run alky. Three, you're going to use a bunch more alky than gas. I use a gallon and a half from pit, drive to stage lane, full pass and burnout, and back to pit. I used I think 12 gallons on Sunday...Killerrons sells a "primer plus" system that allows you to start and run on gas, but make the burnout & run on alky. Saves a lot of fuel that way and warms up the engine faster. Alky--you're going to go from one extreme to the total opposite. Running gas, many times you'll find that cooling the motor down between the later rounds can be challenging. With alky you're going to have an even harder time to build heat in the morning. It's not that bad if you know how to properly use the EGT meter (recommended that you find/beg/borrow/steal one) and using the fuel shut off lever to effectively lean the mixture--it will warm up pretty fast that way. This is where injection has a huge advantage over even an alcohol carburetor. You can't just lean out an alky carb unless you make your own controlled vacuum leak...and even then, it may lean out some cylinders and not others. Advantages of a toilet: First, (and foremost) is simplicity. It is SOOOO simple. There are 3 lines. 1 feeds the pump from the front-mounted fuel cell. Second goes from the pump to the barrel valve. Third goes from the barrel valve back to the cell for the bypass. That's it. The rest bolts on...except you have to drill & tap the manifold for the 8 nozzles, which is simple and is accomplished at home with a hand held drill and a 1/8" NPT tap. Second advantage is throttle response. You think a good dominator has great response...you ain't seen nothing until you've tried mechanical injection....and the toilet's large butterfly lends itself to instant (and I mean INSTANT) throttle response. Basically, if you don't want to accelerate quickly, you keep your foot off the pedal. Yes, you can ease around the pits, but 1/4 throttle on a toilet is about like 3/4 throttle on a carb. This throttle response makes it much easier (for me) to keep a consistent reaction time, especially with a foot-brake car like mine. Also works with transbrakes and any other launching device you can dream up. Disadvantages: Cost. They're currently approx. $1500 new. Compare that to a good alky dominator (don't even mess around with a 4150 alky carb...most times they're more trouble than they're worth) and it really isn't that bad. Rupert charges $1250 for one of his 1050 alky 4500's. You're going to have to move the fuel cell to the front. The toilet kit comes with everything except fuel cell and I believe it also does not come with the feed line...but could be wrong. You'll have to call either Ron's direct or James Monroe (recommended) at the midwest office for more details on that. Once you get the cell mounted, remove & drill the manifold..install the nozzles, nozzle jets, throttle body, and last the injection lines from the barrel valve. You're done. Fire it up and enjoy the sweet smell of alky fumes. Another disadvantage is starting. Once you get it tuned right, it doesn't start that hard. But, before you do get it right...they can be a pain to start. There's no accelerator pump so pumping the throttle does nothing to aid in starting. Once you figure out the starting technique (which is different on every combo) it's no different than a gas carb. Mine actually starts easier than it ever did with a carb. In the morning, I usually ram a little race gas down It's throat, and once it's going, I never have to do it again. You see Top Fuelers doing the same thing...most mechanical injection units need a little help initially. But, even though you have goods & bads, you will find that once you get it tuned, you will absolutely HATE that old gas carb. My combo is this: 33 nozzle jets, 72 pill (summer...70 winter/fall) barrel leaks down at 35% and butterfly air gap is .018". I set it that way....what...3 years ago? I forgot how long it's been, but I have not touched it since. Yes, they're THAT good. I still have a 700 double pumper on my Mustang--but the only reason that it is still on there is because I didn't want to spend $1400 on a new toilet kit. BTW, Ron's doesn't JUST sell toilets...they also have Terminators (like a 4 barrel throttle body...flows +2100 CFM), a T2 which is like a 2 bbl throttle body, and other units as well. They're all based on the mechanical injection principle: The pump is sized in such a way that it will flow just enough fuel to feed the motor +/-. Just putting on an electric pump won't do a thing but flood the motor at idle and lean it out severely at the top end. The pump MUST be the correct one; it is the "heart" of any mechanical injection system. The injection pump can either be driven from a belt off the crank, or "spud" drive off of the end of the cam (if you're really trick). But, spud drive systems for Ford engines are expensive and rare....so a simple belt setup is the by far the cheapest. The pump moves a certain amount of fuel at idle, and the flow rate increases with pump speed. Same way sprint cars and top fuelers run...except fuelers use a LOT more fuel (they have to....Nitro "likes" an air-fuel ratio of around 1.7:1). AGain, trust me on this one...once it's tuned, you'll throw that old carburetor away, just like I did. I won't run one again...unless it's on a street car or a budget build (or a sponsor pays me to run one of theirs). Ok, all that said, if you're really interested...I'd suggest calling James Monroe at the link I posted in a previous post. Nice guy and he's definetly willing to help you, no matter what problems you may run into. Service after the sale....seriously...is second to none. Every time I talk to the guy, I always get off the phone with a smile on my face and something new learned. I also talked direct to Ron's in Tuscon, Az a couple times..pretty nice people, but in no way did they match Monroe in terms of satisfaction. Be sure to tell him I recommended you too... Hope that answers most of your questions.
What's a fair price for this setup? the desription is terrible but it appears to be complete with primer plus system..only thing I see I need is a pulley for an SBF. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4636351931&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ABCA%3AUS%3A11
Rick, I saw that listing the other night. A couple problems there... You will need either a mount kit for the pump or fabricate your own. You will need a crank "spud" (or mandrel) and bolt for a SBF. The pump "might" be too large....depends on the engine it's going on and how much HP you're going to make. The "0" pump is good to around ~650 HP ("black" gear pump or twin gear billet pump). The 0 1/2 size pump is good from around 600 to probably close to 900 HP. and the "1" size pump is good to more than most of us will ever need. The pump pictured in the auction is a "black" pump...but without knowing the size (they come in 0, 0 1/2, 1 sizes) and generally is considered a good pump. That's what I use. The nozzles may be wrong. Can't see them. There are a few different styles. The most common is the 90 degree style. Also, there appears to be an inline shut off valve included in that auction...they are a good thing to have, but not necessary. The base is drilled for a Dominator flange intake...but the holes can be slotted for use on a 4150 pretty easily. Mine is slotted as well...but it is also a 3 3/4" bore and not a 4" bore as listed on that auction. There is also a 4.100" bore... I wouldn't give more than $800 for that setup. I gave $600 for mine, but had to buy another $250 worth of pulleys, crank mandrel, belts, nozzle jegs and pill set. Still a pretty good deal though...for what you get, performance wise. As always, when you buy one of these systems used, be aware that you're going to spend some $$$ to get everything you need, especially if you're buying a BBC setup and retrofitting it to a SBF or anything else other than a BBC. I usually tell everyone that you're going to want to budget another $200 for the 'extras'
Ron's website recommends a 4" bore to flow enough cfm for my setup...glad I didn't meet reserve on the bid...someones gonna be PO"d if they win that and are expecting a 4 " bore....I'm definitely gonna go with this type of setup at some point, hopefully sooner than later. I chased the car a 1/10th Saturday...it's gettin old.
Riporter, why don't you just go straight to a small block blown nitromethane setup?:evilsmile Just kidding, alky does look pretty "cool" though.
