Woe... this suspension (barf)... how d'ya stabilize the car?

With unibody cars like ours there is more deflection in the "frame" than there is inthe suspension. If we were working with a rigid space frame then you could run all the stiffness in the suspension that you wanted but if you stiffen the suspension on a Maverick the frame just flexes more.
Do a little experiment - install "helper" springs on the rear suspension and then see what traction you have. It will be easier to sping the rear tires and cornering will become problematic at any excessive speeds due to the oversteer.
This isn't theory out of a book (although it is backed up in books) it is practical experience running road courses.

If you want to have a suspension that will run corners and accelerate in a straight line you have to start with a rigid frame. On our cars that would mean sub-frame connectors and a 12 point roll cage. Then you can stiffen the suspension to make the tires work.

 

Did you know recently that the DOT decided all new tires if bought in pairs should be installed on the rear. People get over confident with the new tires on front and forget their rear tires are bald. They then get a rearend coming around on them in the rain snow etc.....

I agree the frame has to be rigid. I understand where you are leading me it's just that we see it differently I think. In my eyes the front would still not be up to par and the rear would be an improvement. Then again logically speaking no suspension guru is gonna build his rear first. Simple logic previals. The rear tracks the front.

i love debating form and function

 

Sir Mavowar,
I enjoy a good debate as long as I can either learn something or teach something. Sometimes it is enough to learn a different view. I also understand that there are differences between the suspension needed on an autocross car and a dragster. Most of us drive our cars on the street, some run them on the street and dragstrip. I don't see too many here that build as I do for .5+ G turns with manners when changes in acceleration occur. I got spoiled early on road race courses and I like the feeling that my car is running on rails and can't go anyplace but where I point it. On Mavericks and very early Mustangs this means a soft suspension with lots of roll bar.
Personally I like just a touch of oversteer but it can't be too much because that quickly becomes unmanagable. If I can get the car close to neutral then I can use the power to add the oversteer or severe braking to get it to hold a line in a corner. A car that understeers is a menace to me, as I want the car to go where I point the wheels. In a dragster understeer is a desirable thing - it keeps you in a straight line - up to a point.
There are no real "hard and fast rules" because handling is such a personal matter. There are some basic guidelines and one of those is that the front and rear suspensions have to start out in a state of balance. They can then be tuned to the driver's preference. This is why I say that adding spring force to stiffen a rear end suspension is a step backwards unless it is complemented with a similar change to the front suspension.
If you put a big roll bar in the back without modifying the front bar you get a car that plows - complete understeer. If you add a big roll bar to the front without doing anything to the rear you get the opposite results. If you engineer it right and add roll stiffness to both ends you get a car that thinks it can turn on a dime and give change. Take some camber out of the front end and you get a resulting increase in oversteer but if you add some caster you get more control. There are a lot of variables that all have to work together to make the car handle for you. The one thing to remember with unibody cars is that they flex - a lot. If you are going to stiffen (add spring force) the suspension you need to start by stiffening the frame.
Then you can add geometry to the front suspension (Shelby drop, aftermarket suspension, etc.) to make it better designed to perform. After these are done you can add more spring rate.
The simplest and purhaps cheapest trick for a stock Maverick would be the addition of a set of roll bars - a larger one on the front and a slightly smaller one on the rear. Without changing the the spring rates you get much better handling on the road and the feeling of security when you turn those corners at higher speeds than you would normally.

A pleasure exchanging ideas with you -

 

A man after my own heart. As you will see I am building a maverick to do some serious road course. I am planning on doing short track as I feel that keeps the driver skill more into play vs who has the most horsepower. I am hoping to have over 1g on the skid pad for my effort. I am of course running a well laid out roll cage 12 point. I am channeling the floor with 2x3 box frame. Spring rates of course will have to wait until I get the car laid out and weighed at each wheel. I am building a 3 link set up for the rear with a watts linkage system. I will have to fashion a complete and custom anti roll bar for the rear(a ways off at this point). I am using coil overs all the way around. The Mustang II set up in thr front is just hands down better. Much more rigid. tubular a arms etc.....

Glad to see somebody else shares the handling bug. I am sure I will pick your brain for advice along the way...

 

I will have to get out my notes from the classes I have taken and the specs from my Mustang. It was set up for me by an old alignment man who set cars up for hill climb - Pike's Peak type. With the MII front your geometry is better to start with so you will have a good start. I thought three link was for drag racing - it seems less compatible with a watts system to me but I guess it all depends on the way the links are run. Watts is an excellent choice when stuck with a solid rear axle though. What we really need is a good independent rear that can be swapped in to our Mavericks. The "E" type with inboard discs could be done but at a cost that is prohibitive for me.

 

I have often wondered if the IRS out of an audi A-4 or A-6 awd would work??? The diff is fairly compact and doesnt look like it would be too hard to mount with some fab work.The head scratcher is the knuckles and locator arms and then you have the struts.its a fairly compact set up but it is more elaborate than the jag type setups,and then of course theres the whole durability aspect of it all behind a stout V-8.Just thinking out loud...

 

Yep, what is out there that will take 400+ Ft Lbs of torque?
Wasn't there a .... Oh never mind. That was a transaxle made by the French or Germans for the GT-40 (original) that was as strong as a 9" Ford.

 

Getrag??? "X" type trans axle??? what did panteras use???I think they were the same???

 

I think the Panteras used the ZEDF transaxle - it wasn't quite as strong but I think it would stand up to most of the streetable Mavericks and Comets.
I just don't know how you would connect it with a driveline...........

 

Yes!!that was it ZEDF in the panteras.My Porsche 944 had a rear mount transaxle.Took one hell of a beating too,weak link was the hub bearings.Funny how a car made to handle like its on rails had bearings that didnt like side loading.It was a pretty compact unit as well.Used 944's are a dime a dozen around here.I allways wanted to put an all aluminum SBC in the one I had.I sold it before I got the chance though.

 

torque tube,thats what 944's have in em...

 

Mustang II front end... bolt on?

I missed getting a free front end by about a week... from a Mustang II... with spindles and disks. Guy sent it to the dump since he's a Chevy-holic.

Is the Mustang II a bolt on into Comet suspension? He figured it was. With or without the torque boxes (are they bolt on as well?...). I've seen a pic of one installed, so do you have to fabricate motor mounts?

WHisky

BTW... you guys lost me with the ZF and Audi discussion about swapping rear ends. I thought those things were huge... is there space in the back of a Mav or Comet for that? I got my car back from alignment today... will cost me 40.00 or a 24 of beer and the steering wheel doesn't "pulse" any more. Hope that makes my new tires wear evenly.

 

It is not bolt on. If you get one from a car you have a bit more fab work involved and to be honest in stock form they really only give you more engine clearance. An after market such as Rod and Custom is designed to fit our cars and there natural angles. You still have to cut all the shock towers out and weld in the new cross member. Its about 5-8 hr job with a compedent person.

 

Just put a dail indicator next to the right front tire and move it from side to side. (front end jacked up on stands) It moved .250! Just tried the drivers side and it moved more. No wonder it darts all over the place when I hit a bump.

 

Just tried the same thing on my new Titan (jacked up truck measured end movement on tire when I pull on it) and it measures about over .200 also. So much for my brilliant deduction.