Another issue with the Club Wagon that I just can't seem to figure out. Lately it's had a few issues but i've been able to figure them out myself, now it's seems i've hit a mystery. Here is the latest puzzle that I now face. Now it likes to run really rough after it's warmed up and has been driven for awhile, I noticed it the other day and yesterday it was really bad to the point it wanted to die. Holding the throttle does keep it running but I know it's not an idle issue because it still runs a bit rough even with the throttle open a bit. It's not noticeable on full acceleration such as when getting on the freeway. At first I just dismissed it as it either running rich (because it threw a code 41 (System always lean) the other day when I ran a routine test). I'm thinking oh greeaat it's 2006 all over again when for the longest time I couldn't figure out why it would not pass smog. Thank God this was not a smog year (just registered it the other day). I did this test because I noticed the Gas Mileage was beginning to suck again even worse then usual. Code 41 is intermittant if I clear the codes it may not appear again for a few more days but it does eventually come back so I'm fixing to take a look at the Exhaust Manifold bolts making sure they're tight and haven't come loose could be the sensor too I suppose. Don't see what else it could be. Back in 06 a leaky manifold and bad O2 Sensor Threads in the manifold was ultimately why it was running rich outside air was interfering with the O2 Sensor and making it think the system was always lean thus richning the fuel mixture. Anyhow today I got the Code Reader out again and ran some more tests now it's poppin off a Code 31 which according to the Code Reader Manual can indicate two different problems. 1. EGR Control Sensor Fault, or EVAP Control Circuit Fault. Now I figure number 1. there could explain the rough running because the EGR Valve might not be fully closing on decelleration. Since it's an 85 I wasn't thinkin the EVAP since it is isn't that complex on this van I can't see how it could be causing these problems but then again I could be wrong. And yes before running the tests I made sure the engine was at normal operating temperature. I'm trying to determine which one of these problems it is which is the reason for this post . I would try FTE but I never seem to get a response there, figured I would try my luck here again since this board has been very helpful to me with this Van before.. Sorry for the long post I do seem to have a habbit of doing that.
Bad Fuel Pressure regulator...Weak Fuel pump...dirty gas filter...EGR valve sticking open.Possible catalytic converter failure (doubt it) possible lazy O2 sensor.Internal vacuum leak in IAC or IAC going bad,or just a plain old vacuum leak.could be a bad coil too(I have had em act up once the engine is hot).Hope this helps you out...Good luck!!!
Probably should mention that is has a Carburetor not EFI no check engine light either. It does have an EEC Test Port though right next to the battery, so without the light I pretty much have to run random tests to see if it is throwing any codes which I try to do at least every few months or like now when it's running bad. Don't think it has a Fuel Pressure Regulator since it isn't EFI (mechanical fuel pump and all). Fuel Filter isn't that old either and I only use good gas, never that cheap crap from one of those fly by night liquor store gas stations. I wonder what the average life span of an O2 Sensor is, the current one is the one I put in back in 06 during that whole smog fiasco, if it is bad I'm starting to think I got one of the Saturday jobs from the Bosch Factory cause I've never had em go out this soon, the one in the Saturn is still the one that was in the car when I bought it back in 04 still working fine. Guess I can try testing the EGR Sensor with my Multimeter what voltage info should I be looking for? I would have done that yesterday but I don't have any clue what reading constitutes a bad EGR Sensor so I would have been flying blind there.
I would lean towards it being a malfunctioning EGR valve or the egr solinoid.I usually test the solinoid through the scan tool and the valve itself with a vacuum pump.off the top of my head reference voltage should be 5 volts at the solinoid.Cant remember which wire it is(sorry)Same for signal voltage/wire...cant remember(sorry again)does it idle fine cold and run well or is it allways running rough???
It idles normally cold, it's just when it has been running for awhile that it starts acting up. The other day when we went out it was fine at first but after about 20 minutes it would start running rough when idling. At this point even putting it in park or neutral doesn't fix it, only makes it run mildly better. I did a vacuum test with my MityVac Hand Vacuum Pump, fortunatley in the case of this Van it's easy to test the EGR Valve from inside with the dog house off because it's right there on the back of the engine. What I did to test the Solenoid was I pulled the vacuum hose off the valve and hooked it up to the MityVac. Started the engine waited for it to warm up, put it in drive (with the parking brake on and my left foot firmly pressing on the brake pedal), gave it some throttle and watched the reading on the pump's gauge. On initial throttle the reading shows around 15 in.hg then gradually drops as more throttle is applied. If I hold the throttle without moving it the needle on the gauge does not move so the vacuum from the solenoid is constant. Letting up on the throttle and the needle returns to 0 so I think the Solenoid is doing it's job. I then hooked the hose back up to the valve and pulled it from the other end and hooked it to the pump so I could manually operate the EGR Valve. I can hear it open and close with the engine off and it doesn't take much vacuum to open it, it will stay open until I release the vacuum so I know the plunger goodie inside isn't messed up. Too bad I don't have two of these pumps or a way to read the Vacuum from the middle of the line so I could see what the reading from the solenoid is when the Valve is actually open.
Update.. Again Well I seem to have fixed it though I am left with more questions then answers. Today I decided to try a wild idea. I disabled the entire Air Thermactor System before I had half of it disabled (no airflow to the heads, only the CAT). I followed the hose that connects to the valve just above the Air Pump I'm not sure if thats a solenoid it connects to or not (the terminology escapes me at the moment). I disconnected the hose at that point and put a vacuum cap on it. Obviously if I needed to smog it right now it would fail the visual inspection right off the bat. But anyway now no more Codes 31 or 41. Just shows Code 11 (all systems ok). Now i'm certainly not complaining I am glad the Trouble Codes are gone esp 41 (that one brought back nightmares of 06). But I can't help but wonder why the Air Thermactor System a system which is supposed to help is causing these problems, what especially puzzles me is why it was throwing the EGR Sensor Fault Code with the Thermactor System enabled, that code didn't haunt me in 06 up til now it's never thrown an EGR Related Code. At least not since I bought that Code Reader . It makes me wonder if there is crack somewhere in the engine (exhaust ports, cylinder heads , that goofy Air Tube perhaps). Whenever that system is enabled it causes the O2 Sensor to think that the system is constantly lean so the EEC in an attempt to compensate richens the fuel mixture thus wasting gas and consequently money which we obviously do not need. If I can get away with not using the Thermactor System I can be creative in disquising that it is disabled so a Smog Tech wouldn't be able to tell just by looking that the system isn't hooked up, would not be the first time I have done that..But like I said what worries me is the engine. Something is clearly wrong somewhere.. Also it still runs rough after it has been running for a long time though now I'm beginning to think it might just be a simple issue with the Carburetor because it is not anything Sensor Related.
The AIR system employs some one way valves. Check those. you will get exhaust output from the valves when the hoses are disconnected if that/those are bad. that could bleed off exhaust when the EGR is running causing that test to fail. Usually the o2 sensor is employed to test egr(been a long time since I worked on an 85) o2 could be biased/bad. I have seen lots of EGR passages blocked, you might pull it apart and clean it. pull a plug and "read it" might lead you in the right direction for the roughness. Hows the cooling system? I have a jeep cherokee cheif with a 360 that heats up the carb on long runs, causing a vapor lock like situation. The problem is a partially clogged radiator but a phenolic spacer under the carb would probably stop the symptoms.
That is the old eec 3 feed back system, In my opinion they never worked rite anyhow. I don't know what the smog inspection consist of, But if it were mine i would maybe stop up all the vacuum lines that activate the sensors and put a plate under the egr. This way everything will still look normal. Then tune it to run without all the junk that never worked rite anyway. I had a 85 model truck with the same system and after relieving it of the junk it was like i had a new truck. Like i say i have never had to pass a smog test but i think you could make it more efficient without all the junk that never worked to start with.
Actually it's an EEC IV according to the diagram in the book and the label on the Computer itself , which I couldn't understand myself because every source that I check for that all says EFI this EFI that and clearly it's not an EFI I think 85 was a crossover year... I fully agree though all that junk just bogs it down. Not sure if I want to block EGR though wouldn't that cause the engine to knock?? Anyway the Smog Test System in California (in Enhanced Smog Check II Area's anyway) goes as follows. Visual Inspection, Emissions Test, Fuel EVAP Pressure Test, and finally Smoke Visualization Test. Pretty hard to fail the last one considering in most areas of the state regardless of year if your vehicle smokes you'll get a fix-it ticket if caught. Last smog check it failed the EVAP Test but passed everything else, turns out one of the EVAP Hoses was so brittle that when the tech put the clamp pliers on it the hose cracked thus failing the test. Even though everything else was a-ok because it didn't pass EVAP they had to fail it completley. Good news was the retest was free (good thing too because the initial test was $69) and the replacement hose that I bought at Kragen was only like $2. I did have some issues with the Cooling System about six months ago, the rear Coolant Line that runs to the Rear Heater Unit blew a nice dime sized hole (from rubbing against the Rear Axle U-Bolt), ended up replacing that entire hose (all 15 feet of it) because it was in such bad condition, and also the Upper and Lower Hose in front. Flushed the system real good, didn't remove the radiator and have it power flushed which I was tempted to do but didn't. It does have a dissapearing coolant issue whereby there never seems to be any in the Radiator Tank, I know it's in the system though because it doesn't leak and it doesn't overheat. I top it off sometimes it blows some out of the overflow hose then goes back to the level it was before (barely any in the tank), pressure Issue perhaps?? It's been doing this awhile since before that incident, I replaced the Radiator Cap thinking that would help, I think it did a little but still coolant level doesn't stay where it should. I checked all of the other heater hoses none of them leak or are in bad shape.. This rough running issue started fairly recently.
I know it's strange, I would think it would have an EEC III, but I think in CA that was only up until 84. I'm not sure about cars I think they actually got EEC IV sooner, Emissions Standards here always seemed to be less strict for trucks then for cars. I don't even think CAT'S were required for trucks in CA until 77 when I know cars had them in 75. I'm not entirely sure though. My thoughts exactly .
I had customers car in just last week with a mystery coolant loss. I came to the conclusion it was the rad cap. Nope. minor, i mean REAL minor, leak in the head gasket between 3 cylinders. You might try the quick alternative, K & N Block seal. Sometimes it works, Sometimes it don't. Cheeper and takes less time than putting head gaskets in.
hmmm hadn't thought about head gaskets. I would think that would produce a milky pudding like oil (which so far the Oil is fine), from coolant mixing with the oil. Since we also have a Saturn SL1 which are prone to cracking their Cylinder Heads or blowing Head Gaskets I have learned to watch for that sort of thing . It does leak Oil though from the Valve Cover's which causes it to smoke a little so I know I need to pull those off and redo the Gaskets when I get the chance. Not a job I am looking forward to with all that Emissions crap on there... Could it be possible that the Head Gasket could have a leak which causes the oil and I guess a little coolant here and there to leak on the outside but not the inside? Cause if so that would explain the coolant loss and also why the Oil does not look like a Milkshake. When I get a chance I will get my Compression Test Gauge out and do a Compression Test on all the cylinders, with it being a Van and all I can do that from the inside without the need for an assistant so thats a plus. Oh and today I noticed Code 31 is back, it now appears after the vehicle has been running and been driven awhile like say for a half an hour or so. Code 41 fortunatley has not returned (thankfully), I also noticed that when I did a code read immediatley after shutting it off Code 31 appeared on a Key On Engine Off Test, (Anyone familiar with those Ford OBD I Code Readers should know what I am talking about). Code 31 also appeared in Continuous Memory which I know is where the EEC stores Codes. Only Code 11 should appear when the reader is first turned on before it even checks the EEC's Memory unless it finds an immediate issue. After about a minute or so the code dissapears. So I decided to try something I took my Vacuum Pump opened the EGR Valve with it and held it open and ran another test sure enough Code 31 came back on a Key On Engine Off Test. So it leaves me to wonder if either A. The EGR Valve is sticking open part way, or B. There is residual Vacuum getting caught up in there and not bleeding off right away. I guess there is no harm in pulling off the Valve and checking it maybe cleaning it out the gaskets are relativley cheap. Also if I disable the EGR by capping the Vacuum at the solenoid or at that check valve goodie midway on the Vacuum line it throws no codes at all.
I would have to re-familiarize myself with that egr system to give any good ideas on the code 31. Does that egr valve have a position senor on top? If it does those are prone to failure. If not, pull vacuum on the valve, engine running. It should stall or at least come real close. I'd pull the valve and look down the passage for excessive soot. Carb cleaner does wonders on egr soot. So does berrymans chem dip. Just cleaned the entire intake system on a TDI VW for a sooted up egr system. 3 hours in chem dip, all the parts looked new. Ah. just googled ford code 31. EVP 98% egr pos sensor. 2% bad connector at egr pos sensor. Used to repair those all the time. With a DVOM on the first and third wire of the evp sensor, KOEO, you should have 5 volts. Thats if I'm remembering correctly. with the connector connected and backprobing the middle wire you should see a smooth sweep of voltage from ~0.5 up to ~4.9 volts when you apply vacuum to EGR, KOEO. The coolant loss from a blown head gasket doesn't have to go into the oil. a slightly bad gasket can pull open on an intake(downward) stroke and pull coolant in. And then, seal during compression. That can cause faulty readings and short life of the oxygen sensor as well as slow coolant loss. Compression leaking into cooling systems usually causes the overflow tank to...well...overflow. If either leak is real small you won't notice anything except slow coolant loss. Vapor leaks are tricky to find too but, you normally have a white powder trace around the offending part. like a hose clamp, water pump weep hole, thermostat housing, etc.
It does have the sensor on top of the valve yes, large black sensor with an L shapped connector. Can be a P.I.T.A. routing some of the vacuum lines around it. I actually tried the vacuum to the valve trick with the engine running the other day it did not stall, sputtered a bit though. I can now confirm what is happening after it has been running for a long time the valve is not closing all of the way at least not very quickly. Which is why if I restart it within 10 minutes of turning it off (after it's been running for a good half hour or so) it will run crappy and want to stall. The last time it did this I quickly pulled the dog house off and pulled off the vacuum line from the EGR, still ran crappy for another minute or so then gradually improved so something is either sticking or the valve is not seating completley as if something was jamming it partially open. As I said it will only do this after it has been running for a half hour to 45 minutes. It may do it sooner if it's hot outside though. The only residue I can see off hand is around where the Lower Radiator Hose connects to the Water Pump, I had an issue of coolant seaping there after I changed the hose this last time, damn thing wouldn't seal right away it took some breaking in before it finally quit leaking, cheap hose I guess. No leaks on the Upper Hose. I probably should mention that while it does not overheat it does flirt with the High side of the temp gauge esp during the summer months. The needle on the gauge never goes out of the Normal Range but it comes close, It has always done this for as long as I can remember. It has a Drive Fan not an Electric Fan so there is constant airflow past the radiator coils. I used to suspect that maybe the Fan Clutch wasn't allowing the fan to spin as fast as it should (don't recall it ever being replaced). Back when the A/C used to work it did not take long for the Gauge to get close to H. Only does this when idling when the vehicle is moving it never gets above 3/4, barely even makes it over halfway sometimes. I'm not in any big hurry to pull that engine out which is what I would have to do if either head gasket was bad because there is no way with that short amount of clearance in there that I can pull either cylinder head out, perhaps if I were a double jointed gymnast . Working on a full size van has the advantage of being able to access the engine from inside but the disadvantage of only being able to access the back of the engine without seriously stretching, and sideways access.. Forget about it, even changing the front two spark plugs is a huge hassle esp the #1 Cylinder Plug, gotta use a Flex Head Ratchet and I never do grab the right extension at first
