starting probs on maverick

Discussion in 'Technical' started by 67 fairlane, Jul 5, 2003.

  1. 67 fairlane

    67 fairlane New Member

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    ok guys here goes, first great to be here,i own a 427 fe fairlane of 1967 vintage,and ive owned 4 mavericks and this last one has a sickness..it goes like this, 200 6 cyl,stock. all stock except for msd 6a,and pertronix. ive been building cars for a long time,and this one has me stumped..the car keeps the solinoid engaged after it gets running, replaced with new solinoid,and two starters so far, here is what has been done. wired msd into ckt like this,,per instructions.. our 4 pole solinoid, thick red 10 awg wire to battery side , thin red ignition hot to ignition pole, white wire to pertronix red lead, off the same ign pole wire to pos side of coil. and last wire is the factory lead from the ignition switch. black lead from pertronix goes to neg of coil. in place so car will not run on when iginition switched off is the diode supplied with msd 6a. could the ignition switch be bad? ive removed it from the column, and eliminated the key to start it, i just push in the rod by hand now, but here is the kicker, i have to now take the lead from the starter motor and put it directly onto the battery side of the solinoid to get it to work, sux bad. so here are a few theories on this,,is the msd allowing voltage to slip back into the ckt to keep the solinoid engaged? or even burned it out? is the igniition switch bad,and allowing voltage to bleed into the ckt and keep it engaged, another bad solinoid? what do you think, please reply on the forum, or email directly with questions, email is sf0427fenos@aol.com, guys i need this answered, im an electrican by trade,and ive gone through all i can do so far,,ive ohm metered the switch, volt tested it,made sure it was grounded, changed sol, starters, if the ingnition swtich was bad, it wouldnt work right? last time i tried using the switch the solinoid wouldnt engage,and i had to jump over to the battery side. thanx tom
     
  2. FTH73

    FTH73 Average Bear

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    do you mean the starter continues to turn over once you turn on the ignition? If so, I would think that the ignition and starter wires are switched on you solinoid.

    Another thought is this...Only wires from the msd should go to the coil. I went as far as to send my msd back and the only problem was that the tach wire was still hooked to the coil.
     
  3. 67 fairlane

    67 fairlane New Member

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    maverick with sick starting

    hey thanx for the reply but, only but, that is not correct..when you are using a stock dist, with a pertronix aftermarket replacement, the two things that go to the coil, are ignition hot,when key is turned, and the neg part of the pertronix ignition replacement. the white wire is the trigger lead, cuz im not running an msd distributor,,and ya know i will look into the reversal,but i dont believe its that. you are 100 percent correct if you utilize an msd distributor that the only parts connected to the coil are the msd box, but not with this pertronix, i called msd,and they confirmed that. this is one of the things that im quite sure will go down into maverick forum history, cuz its a rare occurance for that to happen. yes the starter continues to engage, but funny thing is, now the solinoid wont even work, ive got to jump it across the hot direct lead from the battery..tell ya what, if you turn out to be correct on the reversal, i owe you a kiss on the cheek, cuz its stumped me,and ive been working on this type of ford starting ckt for 20years, and ive never came across this..i hope its that simple, cuz with all the stress on it, i definitely could have over looked that part..thanx so much, honest, im out the door to look right now,,please reply, and we will kick its butt together one way or another..your faithfull ford nut,,the fe ford fairlane,
     
  4. FTH73

    FTH73 Average Bear

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    right on

    I hope I'm right....for once, I think I've done everything on my car twice or more before I could get some things to work. 9 out of 10 it's a simple mistake mixed with denial or just plain pessimism. Let me know
     
  5. FTH73

    FTH73 Average Bear

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    I was looking...

    I was looking at the manual that I have and it has a pertronix diagram. The only wires to the coil are orange to + and black to -
    The small red to red on distributor and the white to black on distributor. and heavy black and red to battery.
     
  6. 67 fairlane

    67 fairlane New Member

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    whoops sorry all,

    ive done you wrong,,yes,,yes the coil is wired only to the msd,,so sorry, i feel like a boob,,what i meant to have it read,was the pertronix was wired that way,not to have the msd wired that way,, you are correct.. the msd, orange and black only to the coil, the white wire to the red side of the pertronix,and the black wire from pertronix to neg of coil,,what i got confused by writing the msd was wired that way, meant to say pertronix was originally wired that way,,but here is what ive got, black and orange on coil,,,white to red of pertronix, black to neg of coil,,from the ignition side of the solinoid ive got a wire from the msd,small number awg of like 16, and ive got another wire from the ignition side of the solinoid to the tach power source,,sorry guys my fault, i felt terrible after i realized this,,when im wrong i say it,,its my fault i wrote down wrong info,,,please accept my apology..well, now onto the rest,,well after i realized my wrong writing, i went out and looked everything over,,and its all wired up correctly that i can see, it can only be one of two possible theories..first one is that the msd is back feeding power through the diode, or the ignition switch is bad and keeping power through the contacts in it..otherwise, my wires are not crossed on the start and ingnition leads on the solinoid, that part i am positive on,,i went to the maverick website and downloaded the schematics and went through all connections,and its good to go,,put all connections back it started,,but it did that before,and the starter problem when it stays engaged is intermittent, which also shows i had it wired up correctly,,so if the switch is bad, can it overheat and keep the contacts touching on these old switches, or does the diode theory hold water? only two possible scenarios i can come up with,,again, it started,didnt hold the starter engaged, but it will eventually, cuz i went a week before it happend again last time, parts are getting expensive so i do appreciate your help,,ONCE AGAIN,,YOU DESERVE AN APOLOGY FOR MY WRONG DESCRIPTION,,PLEASE ACCEPT IT,,YOU WERE RIGHT,, i dont want to alienate anyone here, cuz i love the fairlanes and mavericks,and you all do also..email or reply ok? thanx so much,,lets figure this one out,, read it all the way through so you understand how its wired,,very simple,but im quite sure it will happen again,,tom
     
  7. 67 fairlane

    67 fairlane New Member

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    again i flubbed it,,

    ok,,im really tired now.. i described it wrong again,, here goes...from msd,,power wire to pos of battery side of sol. trigger red from msd to ignition side of sol. black and orange from msd to coil. pertronix red wire to ignition side of sol. black wire of pertronix to white of msd trigger lead, tach comes out of port on tach,,the rest is wired factory stock,,its either the diode occasionaly energizing the solinoid by back feeding, or the switch is going bad,for its intermittent..sorry again,,im losing my mind going in and out of the heat,,geez,,your all great for keeping patients with me..tom
     
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  8. bmcdaniel

    bmcdaniel Senile Member

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    trigger red from msd to ignition side of sol. ????

    I have the same setup only using a Mallory HyFire VIA. Same color wires and everything. Power for the Pertronix (red wire) and the power trigger for the ignition box (small red wire) should connect to the wire that comes from the key and originally went to the + side of the ignition coil. If this wire is a resistor wire it's still ok to use since this is just used to "trigger" on the MSD and the Pertronix doesn't care either because it's output is amplified by the MSD. Pertronix black wire connects to MSD white wire. MSD large red and black wires go directly to the battery + and - respectively. MSD orange and black wires to + and - sides of coil. The tach needs to be connected to the tach wire of the MSD. The only connection you could have at the solenoid is the + power for the MSD. Hope this helps.
     
  9. Rick Book

    Rick Book Member

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    'had the same problem when my engine was R&R'd.

    A buddy came by the shop, reversed the wires on the solenoid and it solved the problem.

    (sorry, I didn't read *all* your text - I was getting a headache. :D )

    Good luck, and keep us posted,

    Rick
     
  10. 67 fairlane

    67 fairlane New Member

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    still the same

    hey all, and thanx again for forgiving me for my wrongdoing of writing down wrong info,,,well, again, all the wiring is done correctly, as i stated there is not a wire crossed,,checked with ohm meter to verify all the schematic from maverick .com and all turned out well. so, i am guessing its one of the two,,the ignition switch has a bad contact when it gets hot, or the diode is bleeding back through,,so its intermittent,,sux having to wonder and worry when its gonna happen again,,but we shall see..thanx all, and if you need any parts ive got lots, but lets not ask for disc brakes,i made a mistake by listiing them, happened to be the only parts i do want to keep,,sorry,,thanx again,and keep the suggestions coming,,tom:D
     
  11. PINKY

    PINKY .....John Ford.....

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    Could it be something as simple as a bad ground or the starter not shimmed properly?
     
  12. 67 fairlane

    67 fairlane New Member

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    stooped on start up

    hello, ive never heard of a ford starter having to be shimmed, but how would that keep the solinoid energized? the ground? checked with volt meter,and shows good voltage from support bracket to battery side..i do now believe for all to know, that its one or the other of my theories,,the diode that is inline from the voltage regulater to stop runon, or the ignition switch when it gets hot it continues to keep power to the solinoid. everything else has now been 100 percent ohm metered,and volt read and traced out from the schematics ive downloaded. unless there is something else astray, these are the only two things..the only way a solinoid works is to have it energized, otherwords keeps the starter going after its running, but again, this is intermittent..not all the time..so no reversed wires or such..thanx,tom
     
  13. FTH73

    FTH73 Average Bear

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    hey

    never mind.
     
  14. PINKY

    PINKY .....John Ford.....

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    SORRY!!!!

    I am a drag racer, we "shim" everything!!! :D ;)
     
  15. Pegasus

    Pegasus Powder Coating Nut

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    My .02 cents (is it 2 cents or .02 dollars? Oh Never Mind!)...


    * * * *
    Here goes. Forget all of the MSD & Pertronix stuff for right now so we can clear the air.

    1) The ONLY thing that will keep a starter running is a continued supply of juice to the starter right? Agreed...

    2) The ONLY way to get high-amperage juice from the battery is through the starter solenoid right? Agreed...

    3) There are ONLY two ways to make the contact bar in the starter solenoid engage the really big contacts inside the solenoid. One is by applying voltage to the relay coil inside of the solenoid (normal) or by the contacts fusing or sticking closed (NOT normal). I have actually seen this happen alot, especially on Fords (even my Maverick!).

    The cure for #3 is simple, STAY AWAY FROM AUTOZONE starter solenoids! The el-cheapo crap they sell actually uses an aluminum contact bar that will WELD itself to the contacts after just a few uses. ESPECIALLY if you use a high-amp battery and/or heavy-duty starter. Get a QUALITY Motorcraft, etc starter solenoid that uses a brass/steel contactor bar that is LESS PRONE to weld itself closed.

    If you are having this problem, make darned sure you have a battery disconnect switch right at the negative terminal so you can kill the power immediately if this happens again. Failure to do so will burn your battery up, melt the heavy-duty battery-to-starter cables and probably catch fire if you don't act quickly. If you don't have a battery disconnect switch, throwing a brick at the starter solenoid MIGHT "unstick" it (not a pretty sight). Barring that, a large set of diagonal cutters can come in mighty handy to cut the now-melting battery cables.

    Assuming the starter solenioid is brand new, and just to eliminate all other possibilities (MSD or Pertronix mis-wiring for example), run an under-hood starter button to the S terminal on the solenoid and the + Battery terminal and try to start it. Does the starter continue to run after you release the button? If so, bad solenioid (and yes, I have bought brand-new units that were bad/sticking). Make sure you do this a few times to catch an intermittent solenoid.

    If the solenoid checks out, then you most certainly have a mis-wiring that is causing voltage feedback to the starter solenoid. I am running an MSD 6A box with MSD distributor and did NOT have to use an isolation solenoid. You may want to even get in contact with the tech-support guys and MSD and make certain to let them know your using a non-MSD distributor as that can have alot to do with it.

    Anyways, keep us updated on how it works out!

    Tracy
     

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