Mustang II Swap Knowledge Base

stockhatch · 2008-11-18, 19:12

So I have been reading and thinking... Terrifying concepts, I know.

Anyhow, I was digging up several threads relating to the Mustang II front suspension swap, and it occured to me that lots of people are interested in the swap, and a few have performed the swap(or are in process). There are lots of threads floating around detailing parts of the process or addressing certain issues, but no one thread covers all of the details relating to the swap. Also, it is difficult to find all of the info in a search, because alot of the time the verbage is not consistant, ie MII M2 Mustang II, just II, Pinto etc.

Can we maybe dedicate a thread to the parts, process, pros, cons, cost, and anything else relating the the swap? I know that I would love a centralized base for any and all MII info, and I think it would greatly benefit myself, and anyone else who is swapped or considering it.

The people who have done the swap can link their threads(if they have one), and we could discuss anything and everything involved in the swap. We can cover issues people have run into and overcome, the source of their parts, stock or aftermarket, proven engine/trans combos, headers, sheetmetal mods, structural implications, cage if applicable, etc etc.

I will do anything I can to help, though I am seeking knowledge, so I may be limited in the information department. Whatcha guys think?

BTW, if there is already an "Official Maverick.to Mustang II Swap Thread", please direct me to it, and I will quietly(and sheepishly) go read

A couple links to start, hopefully the owners dont mind:

Tech Article covering part sources and options. Includes pics of Mavmans setup

Rod and Custom crossmember install

Engine bay Sheetmetal mods

Rod and Custom complete install

Another Nice Rod and Custom install

Header discussion

After doing alot of reading, I have run across a couple websites reporting failures in aftermarket MII kits. Stefan, I hope it is okay to link to these sites directly. I think they educate and promote safe installs.

Though it is very likely that these are isolated failures, I think that the points made in the second link are very valid, and that elimination of the strut rods should only be done if the kit is engineered to effectively withstand braking, and other loads. Research your kits carefully.

Watch the video posted in the first post of the first link below. I'm not slamming the design of any products on here because I am not qualified to do so. This is for educational purposes only.

MII FAILURE THREAD

ANOTHER MII FAILURE THREAD

ANOTHER FAILURE THREAD

**71gold** · 2008-11-18, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockhatch

So I have been reading and thinking... Terrifying concepts, I know.

Anyhow, I was digging up several threads relating to the Mustang II front suspension swap, and it occured to me that lots of people are interested in the swap, and a few have performed the swap(or are in process). There are lots of threads floating around detailing parts of the process or addressing certain issues, but no one thread covers all of the details relating to the swap. Also, it is difficult to find all of the info in a search, because alot of the time the verbage is not consistant, ie MII M2 Mustang II, just II, Pinto etc.

Can we maybe dedicate a thread to the parts, process, pros, cons, cost, and anything else relating the the swap? I know that I would love a centralized base for any and all MII info, and I think it would greatly benefit myself, and anyone else who is swapped or considering it.

The people who have done the swap can link their threads(if they have one), and we could discuss anything and everything involved in the swap. We can cover issues people have run into and overcome, the source of their parts, stock or aftermarket, proven engine/trans combos, headers, sheetmetal mods, structural implications, cage if applicable, etc etc.

I will do anything I can to help, though I am seeking knowledge, so I may be limited in the information department. Whatcha guys think?

BTW, if there is already an "Official Maverick.to Mustang II Swap Thread", please direct me to it, and I will quietly(and sheepishly) go read

A couple links to start, hopefully the owners dont mind:

Tech Article covering part sources and options. Includes pics of Mavmans setup

Rod and Custom crossmember install

Engine bay Sheetmetal mods

Rod and Custom complete install

Header discussion

...

...Good Luck...

...Frank...

stockhatch · 2008-11-18, 19:42

Well, thanks

I found your experience very valuable, so I posted your thread up. Hope ya dont mind.

Something I have heard mentioned a couple times, but not discussed at length is the effect on the structural integrity of the car. Apparently, some people run sans fender aprons, but with a cage. Others patch the tower holes with sheet metal. Does anyone run any kind of brace or monte carlo bar setup to aid in chassis stiffening? Is it necessary/worth it?

**Stefan** · 2008-11-18, 20:07

I made the tread a sticky.

stockhatch · 2008-11-18, 20:14

Sweet, thanks. Hopefully some info stacks up in here that helps everyone, including myself

johnson · 2008-11-18, 20:17

kudos for that one

stockhatch · 2008-12-23, 08:59

I added some information related to failures in MII conversions. Please read and respond to these if you have anything to add or share.

jayman · 2008-12-27, 18:36

"Something I have heard mentioned a couple times, but not discussed at length is the effect on the structural integrity of the car. Apparently, some people run sans fender aprons, but with a cage. Others patch the tower holes with sheet metal. Does anyone run any kind of brace or monte carlo bar setup to aid in chassis stiffening? Is it necessary/worth it?"

Several good questions here. Most installations that I have seen install sheet metal patches over the holes and call it good. For a daily driver, this is considered to be adequate.

If you drive over really rough roads, or are racing the car, either drag racing or any other type of hard usage, it is a good idea to install a brace from the frame rail in front of the suspension to the "A" pillars or a suitable point on the role cage. (If you are racing, you do have a cage, right?) If you are doing wheels up drag racing, the front frame rails will flex upon returning to earth. The higher the air gap, the more chance of damage.

A monte carlo bar will be a good investment if you drive the car hard. In the original configuration, the shock tower braces help to triangulate stresses from the front suspension into the firewall and as a secondary function, reinforce the mounting points of the fenders. If you have removed the shock towers, then you have a relatively large flat area of sheet metal with no support to keep it from bending or moving. A monte carlo bar will keep the fender mounting points from moving around holding the fenders in place, assuring hood gaps stay even, etc.

Do you have to do any of these things? No. Are they smart things to do? Yes, if you drive your car hard or race it.

As for Mustang II suspension failures, there were a couple of primary causes of the one I have personally seen.

1. Poor weld quality. This ranged from poor weld penetration, poor metal preparation, two hot of a weld causing metal fatigue around the welds, etc. If you are not an excellent welder, hire someone who is. It may save your life.

2. Using stock sheet metal cross member in a vehicle with much higher weight or in situations where the front suspension was being subjected to much higher loads than it was designed to support. i.e. A 53 Ford truck with a 460 using a modified Pinto front clip. The sheet metal cross member collapsed while towing a 10,000 lb trailer driving down a 6% grade. This could have been avoided by reinforcing the cross member, adding cross members to the stock Ford frame to keep the frame from twisting, etc.

3. Rust in the floorboards of a 65 Mustang allowed the frame rails to break loose from the unibody. The rust was not really very obvious under the car when the new suspension was installed. However, once the shock towers and tower braces were removed, the floor was subjected to more stresses than before which caused the rust weakened floorboards to rip loose and the front clip of the Mustang to collapse. This could have been avoided by an honest assessment of the condition of the vehicle before the conversion.

Hope this helps.

stockhatch · 2008-12-27, 21:31

Thanks Jay, for chiming in with that info. I think I will go ahead with some sort of bracing. most likely, I will design something similar to a strut tower brace. Triangulated and made from tubing, that will tie the aprons to the firewall for some added strength.

I dont plan to race my car, it will be a driver. It also wont have the type of tires under it that support any kind of agressive cornering( bigs and skinnies). At this point, I'm debating on a cage. I think it would be nice to have if I did take it to the strip and something happened... Even so, the back seat would become pretty useless, and I think that detracts from what makes it a street car....IMHO.

Anyhow, I sorta went off on a tangent Thanks again for sharing all the good info.

stockhatch · 2008-12-27, 21:47

Oh, I meant to ask about gusseting on the rear section of the lower a-arm mount tube. It seems like some of the crossmembers I have seen pics of have NO gusseting on this section, and some do. The strange thing is that crossmembers from the same companies can be found with and without this gusseting. I wonder if the gussets were added in a revision?

I do know that if I run a setup that does away with the strut rod, it will have gusseting, and most likely and extra bracket like the one added to the car in that first failure link I posted.

I'm no engineer, but I agree that it makes sense to have as much reinforcement in that area as possible. That lower a-arm tube gets hammered under braking especially, and it does not take a genious to see that.

2008-11-18, 19:12	#1
stockhatch Re Member Join Date: 2004-09-22 Location: Boiling Spring Lakes NC Posts: 772 Vehicle(s): '72 Grabber iTrader: 4 (100%)	Mustang II Swap Knowledge Base So I have been reading and thinking... Terrifying concepts, I know. Anyhow, I was digging up several threads relating to the Mustang II front suspension swap, and it occured to me that lots of people are interested in the swap, and a few have performed the swap(or are in process). There are lots of threads floating around detailing parts of the process or addressing certain issues, but no one thread covers all of the details relating to the swap. Also, it is difficult to find all of the info in a search, because alot of the time the verbage is not consistant, ie MII M2 Mustang II, just II, Pinto etc. Can we maybe dedicate a thread to the parts, process, pros, cons, cost, and anything else relating the the swap? I know that I would love a centralized base for any and all MII info, and I think it would greatly benefit myself, and anyone else who is swapped or considering it. The people who have done the swap can link their threads(if they have one), and we could discuss anything and everything involved in the swap. We can cover issues people have run into and overcome, the source of their parts, stock or aftermarket, proven engine/trans combos, headers, sheetmetal mods, structural implications, cage if applicable, etc etc. I will do anything I can to help, though I am seeking knowledge, so I may be limited in the information department. Whatcha guys think? BTW, if there is already an "Official Maverick.to Mustang II Swap Thread", please direct me to it, and I will quietly(and sheepishly) go read A couple links to start, hopefully the owners dont mind: Tech Article covering part sources and options. Includes pics of Mavmans setup Rod and Custom crossmember install Engine bay Sheetmetal mods Rod and Custom complete install Another Nice Rod and Custom install Header discussion After doing alot of reading, I have run across a couple websites reporting failures in aftermarket MII kits. Stefan, I hope it is okay to link to these sites directly. I think they educate and promote safe installs. Though it is very likely that these are isolated failures, I think that the points made in the second link are very valid, and that elimination of the strut rods should only be done if the kit is engineered to effectively withstand braking, and other loads. Research your kits carefully. Watch the video posted in the first post of the first link below. I'm not slamming the design of any products on here because I am not qualified to do so. This is for educational purposes only. MII FAILURE THREAD ANOTHER MII FAILURE THREAD ANOTHER FAILURE THREAD Last edited by stockhatch; 2008-12-25 at 20:13.

2008-11-18, 20:07	#4
Stefan Big Cheese Join Date: 2002-03-09 Location: Montreal, QC Posts: 4,949 iTrader: 11 (100%) Images: 1794	I made the tread a sticky. __________________ Stefan Webmaster http://www.maverick.to Quebec MCCI Rep http://www.maverickcometclub.org

2008-11-18, 20:17	#6
johnson Member Join Date: 2002-09-16 Location: fargo, ok Posts: 832 Vehicle(s): 69.5 maverick iTrader: 1 (100%)	kudos for that one __________________ king of 500 dollar cars

2008-12-27, 18:36	#8
jayman Member Join Date: 2002-08-14 Location: San Diego, Ca Posts: 409 Vehicle(s): 69.5 Maverick/72 Grabber iTrader: 7 (100%) Images: 15	"Something I have heard mentioned a couple times, but not discussed at length is the effect on the structural integrity of the car. Apparently, some people run sans fender aprons, but with a cage. Others patch the tower holes with sheet metal. Does anyone run any kind of brace or monte carlo bar setup to aid in chassis stiffening? Is it necessary/worth it?" Several good questions here. Most installations that I have seen install sheet metal patches over the holes and call it good. For a daily driver, this is considered to be adequate. If you drive over really rough roads, or are racing the car, either drag racing or any other type of hard usage, it is a good idea to install a brace from the frame rail in front of the suspension to the "A" pillars or a suitable point on the role cage. (If you are racing, you do have a cage, right?) If you are doing wheels up drag racing, the front frame rails will flex upon returning to earth. The higher the air gap, the more chance of damage. A monte carlo bar will be a good investment if you drive the car hard. In the original configuration, the shock tower braces help to triangulate stresses from the front suspension into the firewall and as a secondary function, reinforce the mounting points of the fenders. If you have removed the shock towers, then you have a relatively large flat area of sheet metal with no support to keep it from bending or moving. A monte carlo bar will keep the fender mounting points from moving around holding the fenders in place, assuring hood gaps stay even, etc. Do you have to do any of these things? No. Are they smart things to do? Yes, if you drive your car hard or race it. As for Mustang II suspension failures, there were a couple of primary causes of the one I have personally seen. 1. Poor weld quality. This ranged from poor weld penetration, poor metal preparation, two hot of a weld causing metal fatigue around the welds, etc. If you are not an excellent welder, hire someone who is. It may save your life. 2. Using stock sheet metal cross member in a vehicle with much higher weight or in situations where the front suspension was being subjected to much higher loads than it was designed to support. i.e. A 53 Ford truck with a 460 using a modified Pinto front clip. The sheet metal cross member collapsed while towing a 10,000 lb trailer driving down a 6% grade. This could have been avoided by reinforcing the cross member, adding cross members to the stock Ford frame to keep the frame from twisting, etc. 3. Rust in the floorboards of a 65 Mustang allowed the frame rails to break loose from the unibody. The rust was not really very obvious under the car when the new suspension was installed. However, once the shock towers and tower braces were removed, the floor was subjected to more stresses than before which caused the rust weakened floorboards to rip loose and the front clip of the Mustang to collapse. This could have been avoided by an honest assessment of the condition of the vehicle before the conversion. Hope this helps. __________________ --Jay Last edited by jayman; 2008-12-27 at 18:40.

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2008-11-18, 19:42	#3
stockhatch Re Member Join Date: 2004-09-22 Location: Boiling Spring Lakes NC Posts: 772 Vehicle(s): '72 Grabber iTrader: 4 (100%)	Well, thanks I found your experience very valuable, so I posted your thread up. Hope ya dont mind. Something I have heard mentioned a couple times, but not discussed at length is the effect on the structural integrity of the car. Apparently, some people run sans fender aprons, but with a cage. Others patch the tower holes with sheet metal. Does anyone run any kind of brace or monte carlo bar setup to aid in chassis stiffening? Is it necessary/worth it?

2008-11-18, 20:14	#5
stockhatch Re Member Join Date: 2004-09-22 Location: Boiling Spring Lakes NC Posts: 772 Vehicle(s): '72 Grabber iTrader: 4 (100%)	Sweet, thanks. Hopefully some info stacks up in here that helps everyone, including myself

2008-12-23, 08:59	#7
stockhatch Re Member Join Date: 2004-09-22 Location: Boiling Spring Lakes NC Posts: 772 Vehicle(s): '72 Grabber iTrader: 4 (100%)	I added some information related to failures in MII conversions. Please read and respond to these if you have anything to add or share.

2008-12-27, 21:31	#9
stockhatch Re Member Join Date: 2004-09-22 Location: Boiling Spring Lakes NC Posts: 772 Vehicle(s): '72 Grabber iTrader: 4 (100%)	Thanks Jay, for chiming in with that info. I think I will go ahead with some sort of bracing. most likely, I will design something similar to a strut tower brace. Triangulated and made from tubing, that will tie the aprons to the firewall for some added strength. I dont plan to race my car, it will be a driver. It also wont have the type of tires under it that support any kind of agressive cornering( bigs and skinnies). At this point, I'm debating on a cage. I think it would be nice to have if I did take it to the strip and something happened... Even so, the back seat would become pretty useless, and I think that detracts from what makes it a street car....IMHO. Anyhow, I sorta went off on a tangent Thanks again for sharing all the good info.

2008-12-27, 21:47	#10
stockhatch Re Member Join Date: 2004-09-22 Location: Boiling Spring Lakes NC Posts: 772 Vehicle(s): '72 Grabber iTrader: 4 (100%)	Oh, I meant to ask about gusseting on the rear section of the lower a-arm mount tube. It seems like some of the crossmembers I have seen pics of have NO gusseting on this section, and some do. The strange thing is that crossmembers from the same companies can be found with and without this gusseting. I wonder if the gussets were added in a revision? I do know that if I run a setup that does away with the strut rod, it will have gusseting, and most likely and extra bracket like the one added to the car in that first failure link I posted. I'm no engineer, but I agree that it makes sense to have as much reinforcement in that area as possible. That lower a-arm tube gets hammered under braking especially, and it does not take a genious to see that.