HHO Generator - Save Gas

Thanks Jamie...I figured Tilly didn't read everything and just wanted to start and argument...just adding fuel to the fire I guess.

Yea...you would loose economy by adding the device when you add more O2 in the system like I said before. The O2 sensor see the extra O2 and thinks that the system is runing too lean so it riches up the mixture. As for testing I drive 144miles roundtrip to and from work. I test it on the interstate since that is the bulk of my travel. I reset my mpg average device and ran with the device on (without O2 modifications). I recieved 34mpg. The next day I turned the device off and reset the average and ran it again the exact same way I always do and recieved 36mpg. I "tampered" with the O2 sensor and ran the tests again. With the device on I received 44 mpg. The next day with it off I received 38 mpg (because it was running lean without the device) and it ran and idled like crap.

Now since I know my explination and testing is never good enough and you will just find something else to complain about. Lets just put it this way..."Put up or shut up". Just for the sake of you Tilly I got my emissions tested yesturday at the dealership (certifided ford dealership) and my emissions passed with my device on and failed with it off. With it off I had way to much NO2 and CO2 in the exaust because of it running lean. They did tell me I wouldn't pass because it was running better than standard and they would know I made a modification to the car...like I give a crap.

 

http://www.3x24.com/how-to-increase-kilometers-per-liter-with-hho-generators/801710

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212166062.shtml

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=27378
(Want To make money off it)

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/content/2008/aug/09/who-you-gonna-call-gasbuster/news/
(Want to make money off it)

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20080810/NEWS/505979040/-1/COLUMN&parentprofile=-1

http://www.wyff4.com/news/17036761/detail.html
(Honest Partial Results, Was afraid for emmisions laws to complete)

Popular Mechanics did one but they had the same problem as the one above. He just immeditaly dissed it without doing it completely.

 

HHO a SCAM says Bob Paasch,
the Boeing professor of mechanical design at Oregon State University.
31 July 2008

“The process is a scam,” he said. “It’s wishful thinking. If it were true, every power company and auto company in the world would be using it.”

Paasch said the systems — which use water and baking soda to create hydrogen via an electrical charge from the battery and alternator — violate the second law of thermodynamics and can’t work.

“People who buy into this are wasting their money,” he said.

Paasch has conducted tests on a similar device in the past and found it did not live up to any of the claims made by the inventor, who said it would deliver 50 percent more horsepower and double the gas mileage.

Dr Paasch further explained in the discussion following his article
"There is nothing synergistic about burning hydrogen gas with a hydrocarbon fuel. Hydrogen is not a catalyst, there's no increase in efficiency. These combustion processes have been extensively studied for over 100 years. You can talk to any of the professors in Chemical Engineering at OSU, they are all familiar with the chemistry of this reaction
I ran a controlled test on a similar device about 6 years ago, on our fully instrumented engine test cell here at OSU. As it said in the article, there was absolutely no increase in either power or economy.

Here are some facts:
1) Using electrical energy to decompose water into hydrogen and oxygen is called electrolysis. The process was invented around 1800, and it is a common industrial process.
The molecular bond between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in a water molecule is extremely strong, and it takes considerable energy to break this bond. Here's the chemical equation for electrolysis (best I can do without subscripts):

2(H2O) + energy = 2(H2) +(O2)

and here's the equation when you burn hydrogen:

2(H2) +(O2) = 2(H2O) + energy

The first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy) tells us that the energy is the same in each case. Energy is not created by the process of electrolysis. There can be no efficiency gains from this process.

3) Claims have been made that the addition of hydrogen to the combustion process increases the efficiency of the combustion process. I'd like to see the hydrogen from water people explain their chemistry. Hydrocarbon fuels burn and form carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water (also nitrous-oxides, due to the combustion temperature and the presence of nitrogen in the air). The addition of hydrogen adds a new reaction (detailed above) but doesn't change the hydrocarbon chemistry. The effect is additive, no more.

5) The inefficiency inherent in an internal combustion engine is due to thermodynamics, not the combustion chemistry

8) I am paid by the State of Oregon to educate new engineers and produce research results that benefit the public. I've taken my time to address this issue because I also feel a moral obligation to educate the public about basic science and engineering. I'm part of the wave energy research group at OSU, and one of the areas that I teach is automotive engineering. My background is available on the web to anyone that wants it.

Bob Paasch
Boeing Professor of Mechanical Design
School of Mechanical, Industrial, and Manufacturing Engineering
Oregon State University "

 

See...something different...here is the trick on that one.
"conducted tests on a similar device in the past" not what is being done now in the manner it is being done. Without help from the ECU or other devices added to the vehicle the HHO theory doesn't work...you are correct there, but it does work in the case of fooling the O2, MAP, MAF sensor or the vehicles that are setup for gas injection (Propane, Natural Gas injection) it works fine because of the adjustments made for the exta volume of flamable gas in the engine. They have to program the ECU in a vehicle to detect the alternate fuels, because low and behold it doesn't burn with gasoline well...go figure (I am talking about injection and not complete Propane and NG systems)(Seprating Natural Gas is one of the primary sources of Hydrogen). You burn Natural Gas you get CO and O2, H2O and a few other elements...it works in the same manner. The only difference you are now pulling energy from the battery with HHO which in my case isn't anymore than what is used when turning on your headlights.

You are tring to run the car on Hydrogen...this is not possible with HHO in this way. The Hydrogen is a catalist for the fuel. Hydrogen is 3x more explosive under pressure than gasoline. When the piston comes up the hydrogen detonates before the gasoline because of the flamability and explodability of it's flash point is higher than gasoline. Then the gasoline ignites and finishes pushing the piston down...lather rinse repeat. It takes 2% volume in each cylendar to help the process...the more hydrogen the less the gasoline has to work. This removes some of the load off the gaoline combustion that is why leaning it is okay, but leaving it at normal levels it fine too, but riching it up negates the gain because it floods the hydrogen out of the cylendar and it disapates either out the exaust or gets ran throught the engine return vaccume hose. When you lean it you get the chance of detonation, but that will not happen with the Hydrogen because it is an assist not to metion it gets alot hotter in the system when you lean it, but wouldn't you know that Hydrogen makes a green flame and wow...that is alot cooler than the yellow/red flame you get from gasoline so it can help cool the cylendar.

Try adding this to an engine with a carb or a desiel engine...it works great without modifications. Because the carb doesn't work like a EFI engine in the checks and ballances and a desiel runs off of compression and heat which can ignite Hydrogen.

While I know this is not enough because you will pull something else out of your butt atleast I can answer your questions and prove your ignorance.

 

Hello Brad

No it is not.

No it does not

No it does not, remember the Generator test I posted yesterday that showed a 14% reduction in efficency

Speaking of ignorance, for a fellow who claims to have three University Degrees, including a degree in electrical engineering and A Masters degree in IT, you really have a very limited understanding about about all of this.

 

Hello Brad

Actually you have never explained where the "Extra" O2 comes from. It does not come from the electrolyzer.
Where does the extra O2 come from?.

Your car dealer who has just sold you a brand new car told your car was running too good to pass emission testing?
That has got to be the funniest thing I have read all week.

This Video explains it quite well

 

Wow...for someone that doesn't believe it works you know a lot about it to or think you do.

Hydrogen does make a green flame (actualy clear, the green comes for an oxidizer in the air...usualy oxygen or Ferris from the metal)...check YouTube...the video about the Hydrogen torch. If you don't like that one...light a plastic bag of Hydrogen.

Hydrogen is the catalist in the way I described above about the reaction with the gasoline and the piston.

Yea...I remeber the generator...it didn't run on diesel nor did it have a cars carb on it...probably a choke which is different. If it did run on desel how in the world were you comparing it to a ICE.

I have the degrees I said...why do I feel like I am arguing with a know-it-all highschool kid that is getting off by arguing with someone and picking bits and pieces out of the conversation to try and prove his is bigger.

 

Umm..yes it does...HHO...what the hell do you think the O is, Orange Juice? Take your finger out of your butt and use common sence for a minute.

 

You even said it...holy crap...and you know this formula is only relevant on paper and not what actualy happens in the real world. It just magicaly gets converted the way you think all the time.

 

Yea...why is that funny...did you catch a glimpse of yourself in the monitor?

 

Here is a good one for ya too. If it takes 5 amps to generate hydrogen then you can't get more than 5 amps out of what you just produced, but if it takes 30 amps to create it then you can't get more than 30 amps out of it which could possibly be larger than the first 5 amps. I am not talking about the energy in the sence you are...I am talking about converting it to mechanical energy and not back to chemical energy. So if I take a bag and collect the hydrogn of the 5amp one and then the 30amp one then the second bag will make a bigger boom when you light it than the first bag?

The hydrogen is used to help push the piston down before the gasoline explodes

 

If you believe that you are beyond deluted.

 

Hello Brad

I am sorry I have taken so long to reply to your 6 most recent posts. I just could not stop laughing.
Where does one begin?

* I think you will find that the Generator in question had a carburettor on it
* Yes indeed, a choke is definitely different than A carburettor
* The last time I checked a Diesel was an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine)
* Once again let me assure you that the H2 is not a catalyst as the good Dr pointed out in my earlier post.
* H2 does not burn with a green flame.
* You still have not explained where the "Extra" O2 comes from that you say is detected in the exhaust O2 sensor.
* You will find that when you electrolyse water the resultant Gas formed is in the correct stoichiometric ratio for perfect combustion.

You really do not have a clue do you.
But your posts are certainly entertaining.

 

1) You think but you don't know
2) Correct
3) I have always refered to a Diesel as a Diesel and a Gasoline Engine that actualy uses a "spark plug" and not "glow plugs" as an ICE
4) Apparently you don't understand what I mean by catalist maybe Assist would be a better word. Good Doctor...he may be a specality in his field, but if one is objective he will make his own results. So your trust what a congressman says because he is a specality in his field?
5) Then what color does it burn?
6) From the unburned O2 from the engine, but lets forget the fact that you looked like a butt when I said it does come from the HHO device.

As for the last part...why don't you tell us why it doesn't work in your own words.

 

Man this is getting really out there...

Extra oxygen? If there is extra oxygen that doesn't get used burning either the fuel, (gasoline and/or hydrogen) then it means more fuel can be burned. And the O2 sensor tells the ECM to add more fuel. The ratio will correct itself. What you're going to get is more power, better combustion, and yes more gas is going in, but you're in theory going to use less pedal.

If we pretend the "HHO" can be generated for free, without elecrical draw from the car (or even with a trunk full of batteries) there is no doubt in my mind the car would get better MPG if you could get enough of it in there, and would not need O2 sensor mods. You will not have extra oxygen in the exhaust on a properly running, closed-loop EFI engine. You won't.

This is why nitrous oxide works. You get more oxygen in the cylinders so you can burn more fuel, not because the nitrous is itself a fuel. It just carries more oxygen than the air does, the stuff by itself is not even flammable. This is why a dry shot of nitrous can work in an EFI engine. The ECM adds the extra fuel it needs by reacting to the additional oxygen. (assuming the injectors and fuel pressure are up to the task, but let's forget that) We use wet shots on carbs because we have no ECM to do that. (Argue all you want about these HHO things but don't try to tell a forum full of old school racers and muscle car nuts about nitrous oxide.)

Your car gets better gas mileage with this system because you screwed with the air/fuel ratio and your engine runs lean. That's it.

Good luck with it, seriously. I'm glad your dealership is staffed by idiots because there's no way they'd honor your impending warranty claim otherwise. Dude, you're going to hurt your motor and I'm not trying to be an a$$hole about it but either you or the poor sucker you eventually sell it to is going to have bad problems.

And what in the world is any of that tripe supposed to mean? Are you saying a diesel engine is not an internal combustion engine? And what does the carb have to do with it? Are you saying it has a choke instead of a carb? Are you high?

I'm sorry man. While this was still a civil conversation and before it turned into a fight (VERY rare on this forum!) between two people who weren't even members before this thread got started, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You seemed informed and intelligent unlike all the flakes out there peddling this junk. But the more you talk the less I'm able to do that. You start getting riled up and your credibility goes to hell. Some of what you've said is ignorant. Some of it's full-on batsh!t crazy.

I don't think I can participate in this thread anymore and if I were a mod I'd lock it. Sorry this happened Bubba, really I am.